[00:00:00] - [Speaker 0]
The fucking world the the boatman. Francis Boatman world building is just immaculate. Puts one piece to shame.

[00:00:09] - [Speaker 1]
Was that your wife that was on the first episode, or was that your ex cohost's wife? Is that Tommy's wife?

[00:00:15] - [Speaker 0]
It was Tommy's wife. Yeah.

[00:00:16] - [Speaker 1]
We're Then we made her come on and say everything she knew about quest 64.

[00:00:20] - [Speaker 0]
She's talked about the kid with the stick and then was like, that's all I know. Kid with a stick?

[00:00:26] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. We even have for ten minutes based on kid with a stick, though. And I remember there was, like, a map, but, like, I I couldn't read it. Yeah. No.

[00:00:35] - [Speaker 1]
Perfect. Like, you're, like, 10 for 10 on quest 64 tropes right now. Just keep going.

[00:00:41] - [Speaker 2]
Holy shit. Running around. I did some running around in quest

[00:00:45] - [Speaker 0]
64. Run fast as shit, though. Yeah. He does. He has a little

[00:00:48] - [Speaker 2]
he guy he has a good, like, gallop.

[00:00:50] - [Speaker 1]
One of the best running animations.

[00:00:53] - [Speaker 2]
His little head like a thing.

[00:00:55] - [Speaker 1]
Wish so good because it's so natural.

[00:00:57] - [Speaker 0]
I wish his was like the the Squidbillies, sheriff where his feet just rotate in place instead of fucking they just fucking rotate like little wheels. Oh, fuck. Aloha, everyone. My name is Aaron. I've got blisters on me fingers.

[00:01:16] - [Speaker 2]
And I am Jerry, and I can do a backflip, but I just don't want to right now.

[00:01:20] - [Speaker 0]
Then you're listening to Super Pot saga. Welcome back, everybody. Yep. Super Pod saga. It's us.

[00:01:35] - [Speaker 0]
It's it's those guys again. Goddamn it. Aboard. Yep. You you try to get rid of us, but we can't be Chew.

[00:01:43] - [Speaker 0]
Doo doo.

[00:01:46] - [Speaker 2]
Red herring. Boat boat noise.

[00:01:48] - [Speaker 0]
Boat. Boat noises. Well, yeah, it's SuperPOD Saga. For any you first time listeners, this is the the podcast where Jerry and I, we talk about a different video game topic each week with a different guest. And who do we have as a as a guest today?

[00:02:05] - [Speaker 0]
We have Mike. Hello, Mike. Welcome back, man. Hi. I'm Mike.

[00:02:09] - [Speaker 0]
He is Mike. Yeah. That's right.

[00:02:11] - [Speaker 2]
He's the best.

[00:02:13] - [Speaker 0]
Mike, for for those who haven't ever heard you on this show for whatever reason, go ahead and introduce yourself. Talk about whatever games you like, your favorite ice cream flavor. There we go. Anything else you wanna plug? Yeah.

[00:02:28] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. I'm Mike. I keep showing up on this super pod show because when I get a good idea or something that's people are yelling at me about them, like, you know, who would like to talk about this? Jerry.

[00:02:40] - [Speaker 0]
Not a does he have another guy?

[00:02:46] - [Speaker 1]
Oh, yeah. And the then and yeah.

[00:02:47] - [Speaker 2]
And the guy that started

[00:02:48] - [Speaker 0]
the show. Yeah. Yeah. That one. That other fucker.

[00:02:52] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. I really like regular chocolate chip, not mint chocolate chip because I like vanilla ice cream. Respectable. So any ice cream that's vanilla based

[00:03:03] - [Speaker 2]
is like don't like That's fuck with it.

[00:03:05] - [Speaker 1]
I don't like too much stuff either.

[00:03:06] - [Speaker 2]
Cookie dough

[00:03:07] - [Speaker 1]
ice cream. That's but that's like that's sweeter ice cream. That's not vanilla. Cookie dough ice cream is like the cream from, like, cookies and cream. Oh, you said cookie dough.

[00:03:17] - [Speaker 2]
Cookie dough.

[00:03:17] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. Cookies and cream is like Oreo.

[00:03:19] - [Speaker 2]
Like, It's gotta be cookie dough, man.

[00:03:22] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. Cookie dough is good. As long as there's not too big a chunks, like, long as the chunks are small and, like, cube shaped, I'm

[00:03:29] - [Speaker 2]
okay with dough. Chunks of cookie dough.

[00:03:31] - [Speaker 1]
Mhmm. So then I can decide how much I wanna intake with my vanilla ice cream. I like waffle cone too. A lot of times you get, like

[00:03:38] - [Speaker 0]
Hell yeah. Chunk of the, like Big ones.

[00:03:40] - [Speaker 2]
Now there's a No.

[00:03:41] - [Speaker 1]
Like, waffle ice cream. Like, oh Don't you have that value where it's, chunks of, like, chocolate covered waffle cone and vanilla ice cream? That always seems to be really good vanilla ice cream. I like vanilla ice cream. Vanilla

[00:03:52] - [Speaker 2]
ice I a I like a combination soft serve. Classic combination, chocolate and vanilla.

[00:03:58] - [Speaker 1]
Oh, like the swirl? Like the 39¢, like, McDonald's cone thing?

[00:04:02] - [Speaker 2]
Not from McDonald's.

[00:04:03] - [Speaker 1]
That's all that's all milk. One of my friends has a soft serve machine. One of

[00:04:07] - [Speaker 0]
my friends has a soft spot on their head.

[00:04:09] - [Speaker 1]
But they're no. They're all they're like $300 to get one, and then all you gotta do is dump milk in it, and it just turns milk into soft serve. That's all that sauce is is frozen milk.

[00:04:17] - [Speaker 0]
Holy shit.

[00:04:18] - [Speaker 2]
Can do that too. What?

[00:04:20] - [Speaker 0]
Ice cream

[00:04:20] - [Speaker 2]
and yogurt. What? Yeah. It's I don't know. It's black magic.

[00:04:25] - [Speaker 2]
I don't know. Says it in the get

[00:04:26] - [Speaker 1]
a machine that just does ice cream, and then you just eat all the ice cream because

[00:04:30] - [Speaker 2]
it's just gallons

[00:04:31] - [Speaker 0]
of milk. You just do the thing.

[00:04:33] - [Speaker 1]
The ice cream to make it.

[00:04:34] - [Speaker 2]
I mean, I believe that you get you can get a machine for anything. These days, you can get a machine, sit on it, and fucks you and stuff. I don't know.

[00:04:40] - [Speaker 0]
It's it's the bike from it. It's always sunny. Oh my god. But, no, I was gonna say you could buy you could do that thing that they taught you in middle school where, like, you fill a coffee can with, like, salt, and then you have, like, milk in a bag, and you just roll it, and it makes ice There's

[00:04:56] - [Speaker 2]
a video game called milk inside of a milk inside a bag of milk inside bag of inside a bag of milk.

[00:05:02] - [Speaker 0]
I think I've heard of that. Yeah. Yeah. Supposed be fucked up. Speaking of fucking RPG, what are we talk shit.

[00:05:27] - [Speaker 1]
Jerry, Jerry,

[00:05:28] - [Speaker 0]
what are we talking about today?

[00:05:29] - [Speaker 2]
We're talking about role playing games or RPGs for the layman out there. Yeah. I would like to invite Mike. Dude, this was a good idea. Yeah.

[00:05:46] - [Speaker 2]
Like, I need you to explain to the listeners what the purpose of this conversation is.

[00:05:55] - [Speaker 1]
So what I like to do on Twitter when people say that there's no Nintendo sixty four RPGs is then immediately list every game that's a Nintendo sixty four RPG. I'm super excited. And not I'm not smart enough to, like, save it to, like, a text file or something, so I just have to sit there and, like, I'm like, one, three.

[00:06:14] - [Speaker 2]
Just make it up every single time.

[00:06:16] - [Speaker 1]
Five, six, seven. Yeah. I just because that's why the order is different. You'll see the different order every time.

[00:06:21] - [Speaker 2]
Sometimes it's just, like, one missing. I think I've

[00:06:24] - [Speaker 1]
I've even seen you

[00:06:25] - [Speaker 2]
post, like, you'll you forget one, then you come back, like, a day later, like, oh, forgot one.

[00:06:29] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. Hungry monsters. Forgot that one. Damn. Anyway, so the thing with with the n 64 RPGs is because it was a three d system, not, you know, disc based, so there was limited space.

[00:06:42] - [Speaker 1]
There's a lot of games that are RPGs. And then there's a lot of games that are, like, RPG adjacent on the n 64. And depending on my mood and the tenor of the conversation, I like to include different ones and then just see what the people do when I do that. Like, I'll be like, add Harvest Moon today or I'll add Pokemon Stadium, or I'll add Animal Crossing, or I'll add Mega Man 64. And then I just see where it goes from there.

[00:07:08] - [Speaker 1]
Because in my head, a lot of those games are very RPG adjacent or are RPGs depending on how strict or loose your definition is. And that just after one day of somebody, like, cropped my picture and name out of that of my list and then posted it to their wall and I find it because if you talk about Quest 64, I will find you. It just happened. Anyway, he cropped my my profile picture and my name out and he's like, with a gun to your head somebody showed you this list, what would you and then a bunch of people, after I commented on it, a bunch of the people who also follow my account were like, oh, RPGs. And then he never commented back.

[00:07:46] - [Speaker 1]
It got me thinking, it like, it? But is it like that decisive? Like, are RPGs like what an RPG is? Is it that decisive that we can't just agree that somebody else feels like, you know, whatever AP CD game is an RPG? And we don't feel that way.

[00:08:05] - [Speaker 1]
But like, can't you appreciate that RPG is fluid and not like.

[00:08:11] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah.

[00:08:12] - [Speaker 1]
A very strict definition. So this I messaged Aaron and Jared. I'm like, hey, we should talk about what an RPG is and you can disagree with me. And Aaron's like, yeah. I think we could do all, like, in I didn't immediately disagree.

[00:08:24] - [Speaker 2]
And I and I was at work, and our goddamn Discord exploded. I was, like, away from my phone for maybe, like, forty five minutes, and I came back and Discord notifications were just, like, shaking and rocking back and forth in the corner just being like, it's too many, man. It's too many. I can't I can't show you all of And it was like a wall of text, but then we fucked up Aaron because then Aaron had to do some work, and we went fucking baloney sandwiches all over that Discord chat.

[00:08:52] - [Speaker 0]
And then And then

[00:08:52] - [Speaker 1]
I waited till both of you shut up, and then I posted it on Twitter and take and take you both. So you got all the notifications on there too because I turned

[00:09:01] - [Speaker 2]
off That was, yeah, it was, like, two days straight of just nonstop notifications.

[00:09:06] - [Speaker 0]
I mean, you can you could mute a conversation and then in Twitter. You could be like the three dots and then Yeah. But, yeah, when I was when I just got out of putting my kid to bed, I looked at at Discord, and there was, like, 25 messages in the pregame chat. I was like, god fucking damn it. And then it's it's all about alcohol and shit.

[00:09:27] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. Here's the betting line on how late you're gonna be.

[00:09:29] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah. Basically was. Just borderline that.

[00:09:33] - [Speaker 2]
Don't say anything, Mike. The listeners can't peek that far behind the curtain.

[00:09:39] - [Speaker 1]
The line will change next time.

[00:09:40] - [Speaker 0]
Listeners, I'm late all the time. I'm late all the time.

[00:09:43] - [Speaker 2]
And we just tore the curtain down and stomped on it.

[00:09:46] - [Speaker 1]
Predictably late too.

[00:09:49] - [Speaker 0]
Like, to the minute. Yeah. Because you predicted 08:10 or whatever, and I

[00:09:55] - [Speaker 1]
was Ten minutes. Ten minutes, and you were eleven minutes late. Yep.

[00:09:58] - [Speaker 2]
Fuck. Okay. Yep. Well, yeah. It's so funny.

[00:10:01] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah. I'm I'm excited to, do something a little bit off of the beaten path, like the regular beaten path of Super Pod saga. Yeah. Usually, this show boils down to, like, our top threes and top fives, or, like, we'll talk about a console or shit like that. We never really I don't think we've ever really had, like, a discussion This is

[00:10:17] - [Speaker 2]
more of, like, a episode.

[00:10:18] - [Speaker 0]
This is more

[00:10:18] - [Speaker 2]
of a discussion slash debate, soft debate, and, like, just kind of a what we think is actually an RPG and like what we think makes it RPG and RPG. And we can talk about some of our our RPGs that come to mind. Because like I definitely have like when I started writing down like what are my favorite RPGs? There's a very you can see a pattern.

[00:10:40] - [Speaker 1]
Oh, yeah.

[00:10:41] - [Speaker 2]
There's a there's a pattern to to my favorites. So I I have a very, you know, kind of set way of thinking of what I think of an RPG when someone says, hey. Do you like RPGs? And I say, I do. I like this game.

[00:10:57] - [Speaker 2]
But

[00:10:58] - [Speaker 0]
Oh, yeah.

[00:10:58] - [Speaker 2]
Mike, why don't you why don't you tell us what you think makes an RPG at its core?

[00:11:07] - [Speaker 1]
So I may yeah. I made a list of things. So I have six things, and I don't so the premise of this conversation would be that these are the things I think of when I think of RPGs. But then the overlapping theme would be, I think that you can remove at least half. So at least three of these six things, possibly four depending on which four, and still have a game that feels like an RPG.

[00:11:39] - [Speaker 1]
So I was hoping that over the course of this episode, like, we would come up with kind of a rough list together of things that we all think of with RPGs. Like, when you list your favorite games, we should be able to pick apart which things that you like about them and stuff, you know, like which and then we can figure out how many of those things are like live or die. This thing needs to be in my RPG or it doesn't feel like an RPG to me. Okay. So the things I have and tell me if any of these things would fall on your list too.

[00:12:09] - [Speaker 1]
One, I had narrative. The game has to have some sort of story. Two, exploration. And the biggest example I gave is you have to be able to zoom out. So in adventure games, you you there usually is a large world, but you only see it small, like fisheye lens portions at a time.

[00:12:28] - [Speaker 1]
Where in a typical RPG, you can see a world map or you can see a town map or you can see you can see that there's more things than you that exist. Like when you're playing Ocarina of Time, there is a map, but you're only living in a small portion, and it's not like I'm looking at everything. You know, you have a mini map, and that's it. That's you. That's you.

[00:12:50] - [Speaker 1]
And then I have character, meaning that character or world progression, and then character meaning stats or item stats. So Mhmm. Two part character thing. Does the character affect the world, and then does the character do they have effects on themselves? Does that world and the the elements of the game affect the character themselves?

[00:13:15] - [Speaker 1]
And then separately from that, I have combat or objectives to overcome. And then my last one is just math. So I think an RPG needs some yeah. I think that the difference between a lot of adventure games and then what turns it into an adventure RPG is math, either through an element of randomness or some sort of calculation behind the scenes that you can't see that makes the game different each time you play it. So, like, the difference between the set elements in Ocarina of Time, like, you know, every time you open a chest in Ocarina of Time, what's gonna be in that chest, you know, because you've played the game before.

[00:13:54] - [Speaker 0]
It's a good one.

[00:13:55] - [Speaker 1]
Compared to a game like Animal Crossing, where you shoot down where you shoot down a balloon and you don't know what's going be in that balloon because there's math behind the scenes in Animal Crossing. You don't know what villagers are going to say what and send you on what quest, and you don't know what the items are gonna be. So even if the math isn't like damage numbers over an enemy's head or an EXP point bar that tells you the next thing, there needs to be some sort of math even if it's not a number in front of you and tangible. So those six things, narrative exploration, world and character progression, character stats, combat, and math. And I don't think every game needs to have all of them, but you need to have some of them, at least some of them for the MMORPG.

[00:14:40] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah. I could see that. Or like a

[00:14:42] - [Speaker 2]
I had a few of those on my list as well.

[00:14:44] - [Speaker 0]
Like some kind of like, I guess, like derivative of one of those. Because one of my I was thinking of games that are kind of more linear, like say, Final Fantasy 10, which is for sure an RPG, but it's linear as fuck. So there's not like a lot of exploration. But I mean, there's still a little bit. I don't know.

[00:15:03] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:15:05] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. And I do have I have examples for each of those six things knowing that we are gonna go down this road because you're like, I wanna make a degree to go to this. So I have exam I have the opposite example. I have examples of RPGs that don't fit all six of those things. I didn't pick the games that do fit those.

[00:15:19] - [Speaker 1]
I did the opposite. Like, games without narrative that still work or games without math.

[00:15:23] - [Speaker 2]
Still works. Game without narrative that still works. Animal Crossing?

[00:15:26] - [Speaker 1]
Like, Gauntlet Legends, RuneScape?

[00:15:28] - [Speaker 0]
Oh, fucking RuneScape. Yep. Or Like,

[00:15:31] - [Speaker 1]
what what does the story of RuneScape matter? But they're basically sitting and grinding their stats in that? Like, what kind of game what kind of game is RuneScape if it's not an RPG?

[00:15:39] - [Speaker 2]
That's true. That's true. Yeah. That's very true. Some of

[00:15:44] - [Speaker 0]
the stuff that

[00:15:44] - [Speaker 2]
I I I had because I didn't I didn't have six. I only had, like, three in a bit. For me, it's immediately some kind of combat system. Like, some type of combat that is either unique or similar to others within that realm of of game. So, like, you know, you got secret of mana.

[00:16:08] - [Speaker 2]
That's an action RPG. You know? It's very much like hack and slash, but there's strategy to it because, like, you have a cool down and, like, stamina and stuff like that. Then there's, like, straight turn based, like, Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest where it's just it's it's all kinda like you said, it's math. You know?

[00:16:24] - [Speaker 2]
It's like there's turns, there's there's a certain randomness to it, but, like, there's variables that go into it that have, like there there's like a there's a structure to that randomness, and I I think you're right. I think that structure is math. And then there's other kind of different things like Super Mario RPG. It's a turn based game, but it has action as well with, like, timed hits and stuff. So, like, again, it's all about for me, it's, like, almost immediately, like, I think of combat.

[00:16:54] - [Speaker 2]
Like, what is the combat like? And, yeah, like, that's that's the first thing that I think about. Combat, and then and then it's like, what's, like, what's the story and the world building and the character development? That's, like, the second big check on mine. Like, you know, if you're if if I'm thinking back to, like but, again, kind of to go back to what you were saying, Mario RPG's story is, like, it's I mean, it's a Mario game at its heart.

[00:17:27] - [Speaker 2]
Like, it's there's no, like, deep crazy story happening behind mar Mario RPG. Is it an amazing RPG, though? Yeah. Because the combat is so fucking good in that game. The combat carries that game.

[00:17:39] - [Speaker 2]
The combat and the dialogue is what carries that game.

[00:17:42] - [Speaker 0]
The character progression is really good in that too. I think that was one of things that might cut down as well too. Like, characters sort of grow, like Mallow for sure grows, Gino.

[00:17:52] - [Speaker 2]
Gino. Even Bowser.

[00:17:54] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah. It's true.

[00:17:57] - [Speaker 2]
But, like, games like one of my favorite games of all time, Secret of Mana. I can't I couldn't even tell you what the fuck is going on in that game. Like, I don't know. Dark Empire comes. It's like Star Wars.

[00:18:07] - [Speaker 2]
It's just like the the bad people came, and they fucked everything up.

[00:18:10] - [Speaker 0]
Gotta get that mana sword.

[00:18:11] - [Speaker 2]
Yeah. Everybody's after this mana sword or something. And then, yeah, the the other thing is definitely exploration. So, like, being able to veer off the beaten path to find, like, loot, chests, secret areas, stuff like that. Find a new quest that's kinda, like, tucked away in a bush somewhere.

[00:18:32] - [Speaker 2]
Like, that's that's my shit. All that stuff?

[00:18:35] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah.

[00:18:35] - [Speaker 2]
That's my RPGs.

[00:18:38] - [Speaker 1]
So we do have some overlap. I just put your initial next to the ones that I have so then when we get to the end, we know what we agree on. Keep in track. Keep in track.

[00:18:46] - [Speaker 2]
Hell yeah. Hell yeah. Hell, yeah. And what about you? Like, in in totality, what what is it about the word RPG that makes it an RPG for you?

[00:18:55] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah. When I when I when I hear that word or group of words, I don't know. When I hear RPG, I for sure think character progression, either, like, character arcs or, like, progression, like, levels, shit like that. Because you have, like, Superstar Saga, Earthbound, the Secret of Mana, shit like that. Anything like that.

[00:19:18] - [Speaker 0]
Even where it's not even just like like a base level if it's like, say, Skyrim where you have levels for different abilities. Like, there's no, like, your character's level one or five or whatever. It's just or even like like like RuneScape, that's a good example too. You don't have, like, the base level. You have levels everything else.

[00:19:34] - [Speaker 0]
That's Mhmm. Yeah. That that's for sure RPG for me. I think also yeah. I think exploration also, whether it's even if you don't have, like, a gigantic open world map, like, you still have a a world map to an extent, like Final Fantasy 10, Legend of Dragoon, where you just, like, follow the little dotted line from place to place.

[00:19:55] - [Speaker 0]
Like, you're still going through, like, a world map and going through this whole continent, this whole world and shit. That's really good. I almost I almost wanna say combat as well. But one that Tommy has drilled into my brain is Disco Elysium, which I mean, it has a lot of what I love about RPGs, but it has no combat. It's all like skill checks and dialogue trees and shit instead of combat.

[00:20:20] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah.

[00:20:20] - [Speaker 2]
Yeah. That's a that's a really unique one.

[00:20:23] - [Speaker 0]
And you have math, for sure. Math, you know, like equipping different pieces of equipment and gear and shit like that, increasing stats, getting swole as fuck. Yeah. Stuff like that.

[00:20:35] - [Speaker 2]
Throw some beef in them gills.

[00:20:38] - [Speaker 0]
Stuff stuff raw meat into my gills, please.

[00:20:41] - [Speaker 2]
I also I I forgot. I did have wrote down, and I I skipped over it, leveling system with some type of gauge for leveling up. Yep. So, I mean, I I kind of already outlined some of my favorite RPGs. Like, I I like, if I think back to RPGs, I'm almost immediately going back to Super Nintendo and PS one.

[00:21:02] - [Speaker 2]
That's where I go. And I'm I'm guilty of it too, Mike. I when I think of the n 64, I don't think of RPGs. But you're right. There are RPGs on there like.

[00:21:14] - [Speaker 2]
Oh, yeah. Like there's very obvious ones too. Like Paper Mario is a very obvious RPG. Like that is basically Super Mario RPG two.

[00:21:24] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. We wouldn't argue that one. And very few few people do. So

[00:21:27] - [Speaker 2]
But, like, I've seen people argue about Quest 64 not being a proper RPG. I've seen people totally dismiss shit like hybrid heaven be like, this is not a fucking RPG. It's like, what the fuck is it? It has a turn based battle system. It has a has a story.

[00:21:42] - [Speaker 2]
Like, you level up.

[00:21:43] - [Speaker 0]
You have quick shit too. Yeah. You learn new moves through skill points or

[00:21:48] - [Speaker 2]
extra People are just like, that's a wrestling game. It's like, shut the fuck up.

[00:21:52] - [Speaker 0]
It's not

[00:21:52] - [Speaker 2]
a wrestling game. Just because you

[00:21:54] - [Speaker 0]
could throw us look. That's not

[00:21:56] - [Speaker 2]
the first time they put a fucking suplex in an RPG. Okay? You got hybrid having suplex of fools everywhere, then you got fucking what's his face from, Final Fantasy six suplex to fucking train. Yep. So there's two suplexes.

[00:22:10] - [Speaker 2]
I guess RPGs are also wrestling.

[00:22:12] - [Speaker 1]
At least two suplexes.

[00:22:14] - [Speaker 2]
At the very least.

[00:22:17] - [Speaker 1]
WrestleFest is really good if you like wrestling RPGs.

[00:22:19] - [Speaker 2]
I heard that that is really good.

[00:22:21] - [Speaker 1]
Oh, that's insane. Is really, really good.

[00:22:24] - [Speaker 0]
That's pretty newish, isn't it? It's like a like a turn based wrestling RPG.

[00:22:28] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. Like, three years, maybe. Two or three years. Yeah. Okay.

[00:22:30] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah. I forgot about that game. Another thing too to get out of the way would be like, Tommy tried to say this a lot. Again, bringing Tommy into this. What the fuck was that baseball game?

[00:22:41] - [Speaker 0]
It's MLB the show. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's got a lot of RPG elements. And he kept trying to say it's a baseball RPG, but it's like, no.

[00:22:49] - [Speaker 0]
It's a baseball game with RPG elements. Like, it's just tacked on RPG elements. That doesn't that doesn't make it an

[00:22:56] - [Speaker 1]
RPG piece. Talk about that, but I think we can wait till later as we think. Because I think sports games in general because because they're so they're on the end once again, on the n 64 game I don't list are the power pro series. And if you've ever played the power pros baseball series, it's very RPG forward, and there's seven of them on the on the n 64. Holy shit.

[00:23:19] - [Speaker 1]
Baseball there's two of them that are more arcadey, but there's five of them that are

[00:23:24] - [Speaker 2]
like But, like, that

[00:23:25] - [Speaker 1]
case simulation, but you're, like, feeding your characters certain things to level up certain stats. Like you're giving, you know, like it is like,

[00:23:33] - [Speaker 2]
here's a pastrami sandwich. Now learn fucking home run.

[00:23:36] - [Speaker 1]
Learn the rocker. Each character is their own is their own, like, thing. You know what I mean? Yes. Yes.

[00:23:42] - [Speaker 1]
I'm gonna get mad. Okay. No. I mean, it is what it is. But no.

[00:23:45] - [Speaker 1]
But it's very,

[00:23:46] - [Speaker 0]
Magic in

[00:23:46] - [Speaker 2]
baseball game.

[00:23:48] - [Speaker 1]
No. They don't. Oh. You told me to be more sarcastic this episode.

[00:23:53] - [Speaker 2]
Fucking Ken Griffey junior just learned Blazaga.

[00:23:56] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. But, yeah, like, at its core, it's a baseball game. Sure. But the way that you progress with your team is, like, individual character development and leveling and, like, player recruiting and EXP level and, like, item management and, like all the stuff that you would think about if you listed off the the things that we just talked about are all in this game, but it's a baseball game. So then it's how far does your we'll do that all these sports later, but it's how far is like, are you willing to allow the definition to go?

[00:24:27] - [Speaker 1]
And that's where I think that we get, like that's where all the the weirdness gets into the conversation.

[00:24:32] - [Speaker 2]
Well, like, even stuff

[00:24:33] - [Speaker 1]
like because

[00:24:33] - [Speaker 2]
it's personal the Galaxy. Like, that new Guardian Guardians of the Galaxy game that came out, like, what was that, two years ago or something? Like, that was considered an RPG. And when I'm playing it, I'm like, I don't think this is an RPG. That doesn't feel like one to me anyways.

[00:24:50] - [Speaker 2]
So like, then it opens up the can of worms of like, okay, but it has RPG elements. Like, has skill trees and has shit like that. So it's like, does having RPG elements just qualify a game as being an RPG? Because like, if you wanna look at it if you wanna look at it this way, Smash has fighting elements, but that's not a fighting game. Like, there's definitely a line there where it's like, okay, just because something has RPG elements, I don't think that automatically puts it in the category or even the subcategory.

[00:25:27] - [Speaker 2]
Like, wouldn't even consider Guardians of the Galaxy an action RPG. I think Guardians of the Galaxy is just an action game has stats. Right? So like Yeah. There's there's definitely like a line in the sand.

[00:25:42] - [Speaker 2]
In our conversations prior to this on Discord, like, we were having, like, having a hard time to be like cause every time Aaron would be like, well, this is not an RPG, but, yeah, but, like, what about? And, like, it was just like

[00:25:54] - [Speaker 0]
counterpoint. Counterpoint.

[00:25:56] - [Speaker 2]
Objection. Like, every single time.

[00:25:59] - [Speaker 1]
We didn't talk about whether or not Ace Attorney is an RPG, but I would be willing to have that conversation too. So

[00:26:05] - [Speaker 2]
Oh, man. Do it. Do it now.

[00:26:08] - [Speaker 0]
Should we just go right

[00:26:08] - [Speaker 1]
into this? So well, here's here's the thing. Before we get to that

[00:26:12] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah.

[00:26:12] - [Speaker 1]
The the com the common trap that people fall into when they're arguing this kind of thing with me is then they say, well, if you suggested pick a game, you know, say hybrid heaven. If you suggested hybrid heaven to somebody and they played it and you told them it was an RPG, don't you think somebody who played just RPGs would be pissed? I'm like, no. Why why if I if I thought they would be pissed, I wouldn't suggest it to them. So then that just loops right back around to the person who's making the suggestion is still it's their opinion.

[00:26:42] - [Speaker 1]
Just like Yeah. You ran into with Guardians of the Galaxy. It was somebody's opinion that they were making an RPG game, and they did make an RPG game in their head. But by the time it got to Jerry's hands, it was clearly in his mind, not an RPG. So they suggested to him as an RPG by somebody by a development team who thought they were making an RPG.

[00:27:04] - [Speaker 1]
And then he played it, it wasn't. Like, where does the impetus like, where does the argument start and finish? Like, whose fault is that? You know, in air quotes.

[00:27:12] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah. Like

[00:27:13] - [Speaker 2]
Ubisoft's it's always gonna be Ubisoft's fault.

[00:27:16] - [Speaker 1]
Fucking Ubisoft. I'm okay. I'm okay with that. But, like, when it's a one on one personal conversation, like, if I suggest a game to Aaron, like and he doesn't think it's an RPG, but I do, then who is it on? You know what I mean?

[00:27:28] - [Speaker 1]
That's why there's so much feeling in what a game is because it could be both of us. It could be Aaron and me. Maybe neither of us have the same definition of the game.

[00:27:37] - [Speaker 2]
It's funny. I've never seen a genre of game defended and picked apart as much as the RPG genre. Like Yeah.

[00:27:46] - [Speaker 1]
It's Because of gatekeeping. It's that's because people like, that's the only RPG that came from a history of people sitting in a basement rolling dice, you know, and creating characters.

[00:27:56] - [Speaker 2]
The original. Yeah.

[00:27:58] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. So, like, sports, like, you know, baseball didn't start in somebody's basement with, a bunch of body odor and

[00:28:04] - [Speaker 2]
How do you know? Sheets.

[00:28:06] - [Speaker 1]
Because I know the history of baseball. That's why I brought up baseball games before.

[00:28:15] - [Speaker 2]
I've seen baseball.

[00:28:18] - [Speaker 1]
I know what it is. But yeah. So, Aaron, this is your episode. I don't wanna derail it any further.

[00:28:24] - [Speaker 0]
That's all.

[00:28:25] - [Speaker 1]
The same same sentiment. Where did you wanna go next?

[00:28:30] - [Speaker 0]
Man, it's tough. There's all sorts of different directions we could go. I mean, otherwise, can pick the things we agree on and we can talk about

[00:28:37] - [Speaker 1]
those.

[00:28:37] - [Speaker 2]
How about this? Why don't we talk about some of these unconventional RPGs that we actually think are RPGs?

[00:28:43] - [Speaker 1]
Okay. Because

[00:28:45] - [Speaker 2]
I got a few listed. Got We can

[00:28:47] - [Speaker 1]
go around this. We can go, like, round table at where each of us picks one, and then we'll talk about it.

[00:28:51] - [Speaker 2]
Let's go around the fucking table. Yeah. Ring around the fucking rosies.

[00:28:55] - [Speaker 1]
Do you wanna start? Because Aaron looks nervous. No.

[00:28:57] - [Speaker 2]
I don't. No. I I

[00:28:58] - [Speaker 0]
do have one, actually. No. I've got one. I've got one.

[00:29:03] - [Speaker 2]
For the listeners, Aaron has now drawn sweat to his brow.

[00:29:07] - [Speaker 1]
Yep. He's he's he's picked a very deceptive skill tree for podcasting.

[00:29:13] - [Speaker 2]
Ladies and gentlemen, this is a man who is trying his best. Dude, oh,

[00:29:21] - [Speaker 0]
I forget. I'm trying to remember which the fuck. So so like, so fuck. The Soul Calibur games, they have they tend to have these, like, separate separate games from or or sorry. Game modes separate from, like, the arcade mode, one on one mode, shit like that.

[00:29:36] - [Speaker 0]
They have, like, like, separate RPG modes.

[00:29:40] - [Speaker 2]
They do?

[00:29:41] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. Like So this is a brave choice for the first one.

[00:29:45] - [Speaker 0]
I know, man.

[00:29:46] - [Speaker 1]
I'm I'm definitive fighting game.

[00:29:48] - [Speaker 0]
I'm going balls in, man. So I love it, though.

[00:29:51] - [Speaker 1]
I wanna hear it.

[00:29:52] - [Speaker 0]
So Soul Calibur

[00:29:54] - [Speaker 1]
thinking of Air Guys? What? Air guys, like the Final Fantasy fighting game.

[00:30:01] - [Speaker 0]
Okay. I thought you were saying something else. I've never played air guys, actually. It's got

[00:30:06] - [Speaker 1]
a full r p it's got a full dungeon crawler inside of the fighting game. Like

[00:30:10] - [Speaker 2]
Well, that's like that's fucking Toebel

[00:30:12] - [Speaker 0]
Toebel also does. But

[00:30:15] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. It does. It's on Soulcalibur.

[00:30:17] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah. Hold on. So, yeah, Soulcalibur three. We'll we'll go Soulcalibur three. So the the full game itself, if you play, like, one on one, versus CPU, the arcade mode, time attack, anything else, just a fighting game.

[00:30:33] - [Speaker 0]
Just a fighting game. Ring out. You have Valdo fucking lobster or or not lobster, crab walking everywhere.

[00:30:40] - [Speaker 2]
Fuck him.

[00:30:41] - [Speaker 0]
But then it's got this this one separate game mode. I forget what exactly it's called, but it's basically just like a strategy RPG where you have this person go this way, they run into an enemy, and then it's a fighting game again. And then, yeah, you fight. If you win or lose, you get XP and you level up. Your character gets more powerful and shit.

[00:31:00] - [Speaker 2]
Is that in Soul Calibur one?

[00:31:01] - [Speaker 0]
Soul Calibur three. It is

[00:31:03] - [Speaker 1]
it's in three, and it's called the Tales of Souls mode. There you go. Yep. And

[00:31:08] - [Speaker 2]
Interesting. It's know about this.

[00:31:11] - [Speaker 0]
And while I mean, yeah, you don't learn new moves. There's no, like, skill trees. I don't believe they're different, like, passive abilities you can equip, I think. I don't remember for sure. But you do for sure level up, and enemies that are higher level than you will just Oh, sorry.

[00:31:27] - [Speaker 1]
Chronicles of the sword. Chronicles of sword. I'm sorry. There's multiple modes in this game. I'm learning right now.

[00:31:33] - [Speaker 2]
What what system was this on? Was this PS two six?

[00:31:36] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah. Was a PS two.

[00:31:37] - [Speaker 1]
Two game? Yep. Mhmm. Or arcade. But what the fuck?

[00:31:42] - [Speaker 0]
Where was that? Yeah. So so that mode for sure is an RPG. It relies heavily on stats, making sure you have, like, the best weapons equipped. Because actually, I think it was the weapons that have different different stats and pass abilities and shit like that.

[00:31:58] - [Speaker 0]
So, yeah, that mode, I I would think is an RPG. It's an RPG to me anyway, but it's like the whole the rest of the game itself is more fighting game. So I don't know. What do you guys think?

[00:32:10] - [Speaker 1]
It sounds like a real time strategy the way you're describing it.

[00:32:13] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah.

[00:32:13] - [Speaker 1]
It sounds like you like you have items and characters and you're like, I'm I just saw a picture of the board, and it straight up looks like a real time strategy, something you would see in ogre battle or something like that or topics.

[00:32:26] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah. Exactly.

[00:32:28] - [Speaker 1]
So that's a whole another can of worms because, you know, some people don't think that the tactics games are RPGs. Think Which is stupid. Real time strategy games instead.

[00:32:36] - [Speaker 2]
I I I was Is that though? It's not stew it's

[00:32:38] - [Speaker 0]
not stupid. It's not. I guess it's not. I mean

[00:32:41] - [Speaker 2]
because, like, I don't think of XCOM as an RPG.

[00:32:44] - [Speaker 0]
But your care I mean, I guess. I mean, you need to level up your characters.

[00:32:51] - [Speaker 2]
By definition, I think it actually is.

[00:32:53] - [Speaker 1]
You don't know you, but you don't level up your characters per se. You level up. Isn't it like the reconnaissance and stuff like that? No, you level up your characters.

[00:33:01] - [Speaker 0]
You level up your characters.

[00:33:02] - [Speaker 1]
All the XCOM.

[00:33:03] - [Speaker 2]
Or is there just a skill tree?

[00:33:04] - [Speaker 1]
No. So because don't you get like a pool of points based on your battles and then you distribute them to your troops?

[00:33:11] - [Speaker 0]
And so in XCOM, enemy unknown or enemy within I I think they're like the same game on like the three sixty and PS three and shit.

[00:33:18] - [Speaker 2]
Demons within.

[00:33:19] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah. Demons within. Demons,

[00:33:21] - [Speaker 2]
demons, demons. Yeah.

[00:33:22] - [Speaker 1]
I'm actually to the demons page of my note. So

[00:33:27] - [Speaker 0]
in those games, depending on how well your units do, like your soldiers do in battles, they'll gain XP for just themselves. And if if they level up, they'll get a new rank. And when you get to that new rank, yeah, there's different, like, skill trees and shit. Like, you can pick, like, this perk or this perk, and it's all specific to different classes. Like, snipers can do this.

[00:33:47] - [Speaker 0]
Was a shotgun guy. Assault can do that. Shit like that. And then you have to, like, build loadouts for them. You can name them.

[00:33:53] - [Speaker 0]
I always name them stupid shit, but that doesn't that doesn't matter. Yeah.

[00:33:58] - [Speaker 2]
Mike, what are you doing?

[00:34:00] - [Speaker 0]
He's just

[00:34:04] - [Speaker 2]
Damon. Matt Damon.

[00:34:11] - [Speaker 0]
Oh, shit. So XCOM's a

[00:34:13] - [Speaker 1]
good example. I wasn't gonna use it, but I wanna piggyback you because Jerry thinks XCOM is not an RPG, and Aaron thinks XCOM is an RPG.

[00:34:20] - [Speaker 0]
Maybe it's just maybe it's just newer XCOMs. Maybe that's just the newer ones possibly, and

[00:34:24] - [Speaker 1]
I'm putting older ones. They're much the same. Okay. So one of the things that we agreed on was exploration. Correct?

[00:34:31] - [Speaker 1]
And isn't, like, Xcom, like, decidedly not exploration based?

[00:34:37] - [Speaker 0]
I mean, you can explore the map. I guess

[00:34:40] - [Speaker 1]
you? You can I don't

[00:34:42] - [Speaker 0]
think you played one recently? You can definitely run around the map. You can send your guy over there if you wanted to, and he would, like, probably

[00:34:49] - [Speaker 1]
run into it. He's like, shit. In bat that's in the battle, though. I'm not talking about exploring the, like, in the fight mode. I'm talking about, like, an overlapping world map where your characters just march around and find new things and explore new places.

[00:35:03] - [Speaker 1]
Or are you just sent to the next battle after you beat a battle and you just go to the next battle and then you just go to the next battle. You just go to the next battle. It's more like a set of scenarios like like the sparks of hope Mario game where you just go to the next thing. It seems like you're exploring, but what you're really doing is just walking a set path to the next dot on the screen to do the next battle. That's what I think of when I think XCOM.

[00:35:24] - [Speaker 2]
Here

[00:35:25] - [Speaker 1]
So that there's no exploration.

[00:35:26] - [Speaker 0]
Hold on. Here's one for you. Have you ever played a Fire Emblem game, Mike? I have not. Okay.

[00:35:32] - [Speaker 0]
So Fire Emblem, there is no exploration at all. It's linear as fuck. So you just go from mission to mission. Mhmm. And, I mean, I a lot of people classify them as strategy RPGs even though there's no exploration.

[00:35:47] - [Speaker 0]
But I guess maybe that's, like I guess maybe that's one of the elements that don't need. You don't need to have it in RPG. I don't know. The Fire Emblem, it's it's it's gotta be an RPG. I mean, I don't know.

[00:35:59] - [Speaker 0]
Maybe maybe other people are right. Strategy games.

[00:36:01] - [Speaker 2]
I do think of

[00:36:02] - [Speaker 0]
It's a strategy game with RPG elements.

[00:36:03] - [Speaker 2]
When I think of, yeah, when I think of Fire

[00:36:05] - [Speaker 1]
Emblem I've never played them, and I think of Fire Emblem as an RPG. Yeah.

[00:36:08] - [Speaker 2]
Yeah. Me

[00:36:08] - [Speaker 1]
too. Without playing them.

[00:36:09] - [Speaker 2]
I've played, like, one. I've beat one, and it was the GBA one. So And that is literally just going from dialogue to battle to dialogue to battle. But I like that because I didn't like the fucking the dating simulator shit in, like, three houses. I didn't give a fuck about joining Gryffindor or wherever the fuck.

[00:36:29] - [Speaker 2]
Like, I just wanted to get into the the meat of the game, but it was like, nope. This is also a Persona game. And I was like, nope. That's not what I want from Fire Emblem at all.

[00:36:38] - [Speaker 0]
And maybe

[00:36:39] - [Speaker 2]
I nope I noped out of that so fast.

[00:36:42] - [Speaker 0]
Maybe the other people are right, though. Maybe, like, strategy RPGs are, like, first and foremost strategy and, like, tactics games with, like, RPG shit sprinkled in possibly.

[00:36:51] - [Speaker 2]
That's a good point because

[00:36:52] - [Speaker 0]
I guess that makes sense.

[00:36:53] - [Speaker 2]
First dash RPG. So it's a it's a form of RPG, but it's strategy first.

[00:37:00] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah.

[00:37:00] - [Speaker 2]
With elements of RPGs.

[00:37:02] - [Speaker 1]
So But to most people, that would feel like an RPG. Correct? Like, I would you would think if you took a if we took a poll of just games like that. So you act so just put XCOM, Fire Emblem, whatever. Ogre battle and one Final Fantasy

[00:37:17] - [Speaker 0]
Shining Force. Yeah. There you go.

[00:37:18] - [Speaker 1]
What per and just and not don't they don't have to call out which one, but you give them four or five things and say, percentage of these games are RPGs? Don't tell me which ones you're voting for. Give me a percentage. You know? Twenty, forty, 60, 80, a %.

[00:37:31] - [Speaker 1]
I would guess that that most people would be at 80% or above. There'd be one that maybe they didn't feel that it was too or that had enough RPG stuff in it for them. But most people would feel that the majority of those tactics games are RPGs.

[00:37:47] - [Speaker 2]
Well, let me let me give you, let me give you one of mine. Evo, search for Eden on the Super Nintendo.

[00:37:54] - [Speaker 0]
Fuck. That's a weird one.

[00:37:55] - [Speaker 1]
Is that the shump one?

[00:37:57] - [Speaker 0]
Did you say the shrimp one?

[00:37:59] - [Speaker 1]
Oh, a shrimp. Like a shoot them up.

[00:38:02] - [Speaker 2]
Shrimp. You got one of them scramps?

[00:38:07] - [Speaker 0]
Lord, don't think I'm

[00:38:08] - [Speaker 1]
on my scramps.

[00:38:11] - [Speaker 0]
Shumps, dude. Don't about these. Shump choking. Yeah.

[00:38:16] - [Speaker 2]
Oh, yeah. So Evo

[00:38:17] - [Speaker 1]
That's it is the game I was thinking of, but not the not the game I was thinking.

[00:38:21] - [Speaker 2]
Evo's a really weird game, but I like Evo.

[00:38:24] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah.

[00:38:25] - [Speaker 2]
It's essentially it's it's made by Enix before they they joined with Square. And, you know, we know that Enix is it prides itself in its Dragon Quest games and, you know, all all the all the great old school RPGs and stuff. They also have some weird shit like this. But, like, there's something about this game. It has leveling up.

[00:38:50] - [Speaker 2]
There's exploration. There's

[00:38:52] - [Speaker 0]
Oh, yeah.

[00:38:53] - [Speaker 2]
Like, you you are essentially choosing how you want to evolve over time. Like, you start off as, like, basically, like a fucking sperm, and you're just going around, like, chomping on shit

[00:39:04] - [Speaker 0]
and not Chomping on sperm.

[00:39:06] - [Speaker 1]
Yep. And it's very clear if anybody's played this game. It's very clear looking at a screenshot, like, heads up display is RPG. Like HP? There's there's well, there's an HP bar, and there's an evil percentage, which I assume is your EXP.

[00:39:21] - [Speaker 2]
Yes. Right next

[00:39:23] - [Speaker 0]
to it.

[00:39:23] - [Speaker 1]
I mean, what what other genre of games has those. Right?

[00:39:26] - [Speaker 2]
Yeah. So whenever you do food, like, you you kill other animals, and when you kill them, you get meat. The meat adds, like, experience points. Once you get enough of it, you can go in to the menus and go, okay. Well, now I want a dorsal fin, and it costs this much XP.

[00:39:45] - [Speaker 2]
K. So I'm gonna level up. That dorsal fin affects you by changing your stats. Like, it might make you swim faster. It might make you be able to do, like, a dash attack.

[00:39:55] - [Speaker 2]
So all of these evolution things that you get from experience change your character, and it changes in a progressive manner to continue through the game. There is a narrative.

[00:40:06] - [Speaker 0]
Like an RPG. Yeah.

[00:40:07] - [Speaker 2]
Yeah. It well, hear me out here. Yeah. I think that it's an RPG. I'm pretty sure it is.

[00:40:15] - [Speaker 0]
It sounds like it.

[00:40:16] - [Speaker 2]
Pretty sure. But, again, it's very unconventional. Also, this game was probably the first game that made me go, oh, side scrollers can be RPGs too.

[00:40:30] - [Speaker 1]
Not Zelda two? That wasn't the first one?

[00:40:32] - [Speaker 2]
I didn't I didn't really play Zelda two.

[00:40:34] - [Speaker 0]
Castlevania two? That no. That's fine.

[00:40:36] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. Or Symphony of Night.

[00:40:37] - [Speaker 2]
See, I played Symphony of the Night way late. Like, way fucking late.

[00:40:43] - [Speaker 1]
So this is your story then?

[00:40:45] - [Speaker 2]
Yeah. This is my origin story, Mike. Come on.

[00:40:48] - [Speaker 0]
Where's the joke?

[00:40:49] - [Speaker 1]
It was Erin that it was Erin that started it. Wanna know

[00:40:53] - [Speaker 0]
how I

[00:40:53] - [Speaker 2]
got these gills? But, yeah, like, EVO is such a weird fucking game. But, like

[00:41:02] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah.

[00:41:02] - [Speaker 2]
At its core, it's an RPG. It's not the greatest game, but, like, I've I beat it recently. And it's it's pretty fun for what it is. It's a little grindy. But, like, again, isn't that kind of part of RPGs too?

[00:41:18] - [Speaker 2]
Isn't that, like, a cliche of RPGs doing the grind? I

[00:41:21] - [Speaker 0]
was gonna add that too. I guess that is a pretty RPG thing because, like

[00:41:24] - [Speaker 2]
I don't like that, though. I don't fucking like grinding. I can't stand grinding.

[00:41:29] - [Speaker 1]
You should I'm not That's why

[00:41:30] - [Speaker 0]
you should play Chrono Cross. You never need to grind in Chrono Cross, baby.

[00:41:34] - [Speaker 1]
I love grinding. I get I got really upset playing

[00:41:37] - [Speaker 0]
cross grinding on other men. I do laugh like that.

[00:41:41] - [Speaker 1]
But this this last year was the first time I played Chrono Trigger, which is probably like some sort of federal crime. But

[00:41:49] - [Speaker 2]
Nah. Was the

[00:41:49] - [Speaker 1]
first time I touched it. And one of the things that I got, like, especially during the first half of the game that struck me was the lack of grinding, which apparently is a feature, not a mic thing. It's you're it's that the game's not supposed to be terribly hard. Like, you don't need to grind too much to move to the next battle. You just need to be more intelligent with combining abilities and things like that or

[00:42:10] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah.

[00:42:11] - [Speaker 1]
Or figure out about, you know, bosses

[00:42:13] - [Speaker 2]
and stuff.

[00:42:14] - [Speaker 1]
Yes. Correct. And not so much. And but all I wanted to do was, like, oh, there's a save point right here, and there's I can see four enemies from the save point. I know what I need to do.

[00:42:23] - [Speaker 1]
I need to sit here for a half hour and beat these guys until I gain, like, three or four levels because that's what Mike does. Like, that's very that's, like, in my DNA. Like, I'm playing dark souls I'm playing dark souls two as my first Souls game right now, and every time that happens, every time there's a bonfire with guys in, like, like, that I can see from the bonfire, it's like, well, I guess I'm killing these guys 12 times until they don't spawn anymore.

[00:42:49] - [Speaker 2]
Yeah. I forgot that's the thing in Dark Souls. If you kill stuff enough, they just disappear for good.

[00:42:54] - [Speaker 1]
You can you can, you know, add to the flavor. Yeah.

[00:42:57] - [Speaker 2]
I did it. I remember doing it There's a there's a there's a dark there's like a Black Knight in Dark Souls two, like, kinda early on. And you can you can cheese him fairly easily to the point where, like, I was I just kinda figured it out on my own. Was like, oh, I can just, like, keep running up behind this motherfucker and doing backstabs. And

[00:43:16] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. The height of power or whatever. Yeah. Those those huge, like, like, dark yeah. And there's, like, 10 of them that are spaced out, you can only have to fight them one at a time.

[00:43:26] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah.

[00:43:26] - [Speaker 1]
So you're just like, once you figure out patterns early in the game, you're like, oh, wow. This is 400 experience, and I can do this until I want to.

[00:43:33] - [Speaker 2]
Until you accidentally slip off a cliff or some shit.

[00:43:36] - [Speaker 1]
Oh, shit. Yeah. I've only pulled certain amounts of hairs out. Learning how to play Dark Souls as my this being my first Dark Souls games.

[00:43:44] - [Speaker 2]
Why two? Why'd you start a two?

[00:43:47] - [Speaker 0]
Probably the easiest one, I I would say. Is it? I'm pretty sure

[00:43:51] - [Speaker 1]
you don't know, but I explicitly picked it because I I was I may have googled which Dark Souls game is the worst. And and then, it almost almost, I would say 90% of websites said two is the worst one. So I'm like, that obviously that's where I need to start.

[00:44:07] - [Speaker 2]
Two is not bad. The yeah. The thing about the Dark Souls games, even two, which is my least favorite, is still far and away a better game than most games.

[00:44:19] - [Speaker 1]
And that's what a lot of people said that, like being the black sheep of the Dark Souls family still puts you above 80% of other games. And I'm like, well, so then I'm not playing a bad game. I'm just playing a game that's ill received. I don't know any of those kind of games.

[00:44:32] - [Speaker 2]
It's kinda smart to do it that way, though, because, like, now you've played, like, what's considered the worst in the series. You can only go up from here. And, like

[00:44:40] - [Speaker 0]
That's true.

[00:44:41] - [Speaker 2]
I could I could

[00:44:42] - [Speaker 0]
Location. Location. Location.

[00:44:44] - [Speaker 2]
I would probably suggest Demon Souls next.

[00:44:47] - [Speaker 1]
So I bought Dark Souls remastered, and then I put it in the drawer and took Dark Souls two out for the $3.60 and played that instead.

[00:44:57] - [Speaker 2]
I did Is it the scholar of the first sin? Is it the

[00:45:01] - [Speaker 1]
It is. But what I found out about the March version is it's while it has all of the added, like, the downloadable content, it doesn't, like there's parts of the game. So I was looking for a branch of yore forever because there's a lot of spots. You you can't get to certain levels without, you know, unfreezing characters that are, you know, stone in front of a Switch or and I was following because I have the scholar of the first sin version of the Xbox three sixty one. I was asking friends on Twitter, where is the first branch that you encounter?

[00:45:33] - [Speaker 1]
And am I am I did I miss it? And they're like, oh, you're playing the scholar version? It should be here. And I went to that place and it wasn't there. And then they're like, oh, this, you know, the old hag with the huge bag should have one, and she didn't.

[00:45:44] - [Speaker 1]
So then people are like, are you sure you're playing the scholar of the first sin? And I took a picture of my box and that's, you know, really big letters. What I found out is that the PS three and Xbox three sixty versions aren't they have the downloadable content, but the core game isn't changed. It's just content added, and it's still vanilla Dark Souls two for the core game elements. What?

[00:46:06] - [Speaker 1]
They didn't change the entire overall game to the scholar version until you did the Xbox one PS four version of scholar. What? So, apparently, the the second this generation of scholar of the sin is some sort of amalgamation of the downloadable content. So I was, taking all sorts of hints from people who had no idea where I was apparently. Like, including, like

[00:46:30] - [Speaker 2]
Did not notice.

[00:46:31] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. I didn't either until two days ago. So, like and I've been playing for two weeks.

[00:46:39] - [Speaker 2]
Holy shit. And I mean

[00:46:40] - [Speaker 1]
Anyway, we we got way off track

[00:46:42] - [Speaker 2]
here.

[00:46:42] - [Speaker 0]
At the

[00:46:42] - [Speaker 2]
top of these stairs is Elden Ring.

[00:46:45] - [Speaker 1]
Well, let's talk about let's let's not get too far away from evil because I'm really interested in evil.

[00:46:48] - [Speaker 2]
Yeah. You like, okay. So

[00:46:51] - [Speaker 1]
Let's figure out what things they doesn't have. Like, because you said that you don't think most people feel like it's an RPG, but you do. So what things what if somebody was gonna argue that it's not, what do you think

[00:47:02] - [Speaker 2]
Barely has storytelling.

[00:47:03] - [Speaker 1]
Okay.

[00:47:04] - [Speaker 2]
Barely.

[00:47:04] - [Speaker 1]
So so no narrative or very little narrative? No. You said it does have exploration, but it's since we we established that it's a two d side scroller, I assume the exploration

[00:47:14] - [Speaker 2]
There's a there's a lot of verticality to it. Yeah.

[00:47:17] - [Speaker 1]
Is it but it's pretty linear, I assume. Like, it's this level, then the next level, then the next level, and not really an overworld map. Or is there

[00:47:23] - [Speaker 2]
There is an there is a world map.

[00:47:25] - [Speaker 1]
And, like And you can go where you want freely.

[00:47:27] - [Speaker 2]
Like, yeah, you kinda, like, go around and, like, when you get to an area, like, the the word will pop up of, like, what that area is, and then you go into it.

[00:47:35] - [Speaker 1]
So, like, say you're in Area 7. Can you just go back to Area 2 because you feel like it and you wanna grind there?

[00:47:40] - [Speaker 2]
No. Because as time progresses and the more you evolve, it's almost in, like, chapters. So, like Okay. Once once you evolve out of the water and onto land, you don't go back to the water. Like, you

[00:47:52] - [Speaker 1]
don't So that that feels linear. So I could see somebody arguing that as well. Like, you are locked into certain levels, which would not happen in a traditional RPG.

[00:48:02] - [Speaker 2]
It's definitely linear, and I don't even know if there's any side quests. It's pretty straightforward.

[00:48:07] - [Speaker 1]
Which is I'm sure somebody else would argue too. But we've established that it's got, like, a backdoor math.

[00:48:13] - [Speaker 2]
Yeah. It's got math. It's got a combat system. There's a leveling system with some gauge of, you know, experience points or some some kind of currency that you have to spend to level up.

[00:48:24] - [Speaker 1]
And we would argue and like you said, not traditionally, but it does have world progression because the world is changing with your actions as you move. So really, I would say that's probably got of the six things that we came up with. It's got four of them. It's got math combat, character stats, and world progression. So even though it lacks traditional exploration and narrative, it still is, you know, whatever what is what is this percentage?

[00:48:52] - [Speaker 1]
65% in RPG? 70% in RPG? I'll take it.

[00:48:56] - [Speaker 2]
I'll take it.

[00:48:57] - [Speaker 1]
Most people would take that. We're still talking about EVO, Aaron.

[00:49:00] - [Speaker 0]
Okay. We went

[00:49:01] - [Speaker 1]
back to EVO. Okay. We should

[00:49:02] - [Speaker 2]
we should just start a website that doesn't doesn't rate games, like, by, like, what they are. It's just like, how many how much of a percentage is this game an RPG? Instead of, like, rating, is this a good game? No. Is it an RPG?

[00:49:15] - [Speaker 2]
That's what everybody wants to know.

[00:49:16] - [Speaker 1]
Is it Is it an RPG with a great would be a great, like, weekly Discord topic too. Here's a game that's not traditionally viewed as an RPG. Is it? Yes or no? And then talk about

[00:49:25] - [Speaker 2]
it. Spollowing. Go.

[00:49:27] - [Speaker 1]
And then you could keep a list of of how many people think it's you know, what percentage of your Discord thinks it's an RPG, what is it? We could have lots of fun with this.

[00:49:35] - [Speaker 0]
Like a Yep. Turn it into, like, a blog or something too. Like, oh, our Discord says blah. And then what do you think? Yeah.

[00:49:42] - [Speaker 0]
That'd be a good idea.

[00:49:43] - [Speaker 1]
Maybe that'll end up being my portion of your blog. Exclusive to your blog is just Mike talking about games that aren't RPGs, but they are. About So you both picked one. Let's pick I'll pick one.

[00:50:06] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah. Yeah.

[00:50:06] - [Speaker 1]
A game that's not traditionally viewed because we talk and we talk I we spoiled this one. We talked about it ahead of time, but I think that people wanna hear about it. Grand Theft Auto San Andreas.

[00:50:15] - [Speaker 0]
Jesus Christ. I'm ready.

[00:50:17] - [Speaker 1]
Okay. So hear me out. Let's let's go from the top. And so let's go. Let's work forward.

[00:50:22] - [Speaker 1]
What things does it have? Based on our list, narrative. Yes.

[00:50:27] - [Speaker 0]
Oh, yeah.

[00:50:27] - [Speaker 1]
Defendantly, Grand Theft Auto has a good story. Correct?

[00:50:30] - [Speaker 2]
They do. Yeah. They do.

[00:50:31] - [Speaker 1]
Great exploration. Villain. Yep. Exploration? Grand Theft Auto is like a core exploring game with a huge overworld map.

[00:50:41] - [Speaker 1]
World progression, character progression. Absolutely, Grand Theft Auto.

[00:50:44] - [Speaker 0]
You can get fat as shit.

[00:50:46] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. Or be really good with handguns, get really good at swimming, like, you know, plus the world changes. As you move on, you unlock different parts of the map. The world gets bigger. It's it's a core mechanic of Grand Theft Auto.

[00:50:59] - [Speaker 1]
It's that's core Grand Theft Auto stuff. Character stats. Absolutely. It has character stats like we talked about. CJ levels up individual things by using them.

[00:51:09] - [Speaker 1]
It's a use based like Final Fantasy two style leveling system where the more you do things, the better you get at it. You drive cars more, you level up your driving ability. You shoot shotguns more, you level up the shotgun. You know, you'd swim more, you become a better swimmer and can go underwater longer. Correct?

[00:51:27] - [Speaker 1]
I think that's part of that.

[00:51:29] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah.

[00:51:29] - [Speaker 1]
Combat. So combat would be a little divisive. It does have combat, but it's clearly not RPG style combat. And it's not even action RPG style combat because there's a set number of, like, bullets that an enemy can take. Like, it's not random.

[00:51:48] - [Speaker 1]
We could argue or at least we could argue it's not random. If you like, you know how many tank shots a police car takes to blow up, and it's pretty consistent. You know? Or you know how yeah. Or you know how many baseball bat swings it takes to kill a civilian?

[00:52:01] - [Speaker 1]
What? So so one could argue that the combat, while it is there, it is not traditional to the genre. But we've so we got four or five. So it comes down to math. Is there enough backdoor math in Grand Theft Auto San Andreas?

[00:52:21] - [Speaker 1]
Maybe. Maybe there is. Because once again, there is an RPG style leveling system, but it's not really random. There is randomness to the loot that people drop, like, you know, bullets and health and stuff like that. But it's not, you know, like the same items are in the same places every time you go.

[00:52:38] - [Speaker 1]
Like, we know where the tank is, like, you know, where, like, an armor is gonna be every time you start the game, that kind of thing. But even at four out of six things on our list that we came up with is Grand Theft Auto San Andreas an RPG. Here's

[00:52:58] - [Speaker 0]
so here's like a really similar game. Have you ever played Crackdown?

[00:53:02] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. Absolutely. I just talked about how Crackdown makes me look at buildings weird because I think about climbing them.

[00:53:09] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So you know all about it. Yeah.

[00:53:11] - [Speaker 0]
Crackdown has a lot of those same elements. You know, you level up your driving by driving, level up throwing by throwing, level up shooting by shooting, shit like that. But, like, even that, I I don't know if I'd really consider it an RPG. It's more of like a like an action adventure game with some, like, really light RPG elements being, like, the XP and all that shit. And I I I think I would probably say the same thing for Grand Theft Auto because, like, ultimately, like, the I mean, even if it does have even if it does have, like, an explorable world map and and you affect the map with, like, all the shit that you do, like, that's not to say that those are definitively RPG elements because, like

[00:53:52] - [Speaker 1]
According to us, they are. Goddamn. So According to the thing the way we started the show.

[00:53:59] - [Speaker 0]
Goddamn it. Because, like, say for instance, Super Mario 64, not an RPG at all, but, I mean, you can affect, like, kind of the world because you open doors and you can unlock shit to go to different places and stuff.

[00:54:14] - [Speaker 1]
But, I mean, that's not But that's not based on your actions. That's just based on collection. Like, you get to number eight of stars and the door opens. It's not like I did this act you know, I did this series of side quests like Grand Theft Auto. I did this series of missions and side quests and that's what unlocked the next thing.

[00:54:33] - [Speaker 1]
It's just you count to number four and that's when the door opens.

[00:54:37] - [Speaker 0]
Okay. Then here's the here's another counterpoint for you. Conker's bad for a day. Not an RPG at all. But, yeah, the different shit that you do heavily affects the world.

[00:54:50] - [Speaker 0]
Like, you keep bringing the fucking hive back to the queen. All the wasps are fucking dead because you annihilate them with machine guns. Mhmm. What is it? You you kill all the cows and shit like that, and they're or not you like like a you kill lots of enemies and their bodies just stay there on the ground and every like, the the rest of the world's affected.

[00:55:11] - [Speaker 0]
Not an RPG, though. Like

[00:55:14] - [Speaker 1]
But that's just one element. Like I said, if we're if we're going forward with the game being an RPG, you're you have to have your heart in the right place. You know? You know Conker is a is at its core, it's a platformer. So then you're trying to find you're trying to find elements to turn into an RPG.

[00:55:32] - [Speaker 2]
I guess the stuff that has to jump out at you and be like, this is obviously a focal point of the development of this game was the combat system or the the progression, like the leveling and stuff, or, like, the world design and how the world changes. Like, I think it should be upfront. Like, this was a focal point of the development of this game. Like,

[00:55:52] - [Speaker 1]
this is harder. Development of Guardians of the Galaxy?

[00:55:57] - [Speaker 0]
No.

[00:55:58] - [Speaker 1]
Oh, well, just when you feel like it's a core vision of the development.

[00:56:03] - [Speaker 0]
Got you. Yeah, man.

[00:56:06] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. This was our whole Discord conversation before we got to this episode.

[00:56:10] - [Speaker 0]
Just it's just Mike running circles around us. Good point, but also this.

[00:56:16] - [Speaker 1]
Like because like I said, it's fluid. It is very much fluid.

[00:56:19] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah.

[00:56:19] - [Speaker 1]
Because I don't I even though I just spent the last five minutes arguing for Grand Theft Auto as an RPG, I don't think it's an RPG. I don't. Because it's not. Like, it does because it doesn't feel because it doesn't feel like one to me. I'm watching Aaron's I

[00:56:33] - [Speaker 2]
can visibly see Aaron's brain, like, fully in on itself.

[00:56:38] - [Speaker 0]
I mean, it's it's a good argument, though, man. Yeah. I think that's that's kind of, listeners, like, before this whole recording, even, like, I just like, what was it? It was Thursday or Friday. We made this pregame chat, and we kind of, like, boiled all of our thoughts.

[00:56:52] - [Speaker 0]
I like like a good pot of hamburger helper. We cranked it up to high, had a good discussion and or and or argument, and then cranked

[00:57:01] - [Speaker 1]
Jerry out and ate all of it.

[00:57:03] - [Speaker 0]
Exactly. No lasagna for you. Yeah. Then we we kinda simmered our our thoughts down. But yeah.

[00:57:09] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's I guess it it does really have to do with, like, the feel of a game. I guess, like, say, Mario and Luigi series, like, it it can kind of feel like a platformer at times, like, hopping around and and doing all that shit.

[00:57:25] - [Speaker 0]
Or even or even like Bowser's Inside Story where it's a lot of two d platforming. It's still ultimately feels like an RPG, like, with the the grand story, the the combat, and, like, the character progression and shit. That's that's

[00:57:40] - [Speaker 1]
But one would argue that if if you're talking about those games in your heart, for most people at least, you're gonna start the conversation feeling like it's an RPG. And I've that's like I feel like that's the big sticking point for the way that most of these conversations go is that you go in with a preconceived notion about what you think a game is. And a lot of people do that without playing them. So, like, I didn't wanna talk about Fire Emblem too much because I haven't played it. But I feel like it's an RPG.

[00:58:09] - [Speaker 1]
And if somebody talked to me about fire emblem, it would start at RPG. Right?

[00:58:12] - [Speaker 0]
That's true.

[00:58:14] - [Speaker 2]
Wild one for you

[00:58:14] - [Speaker 0]
guys. Okay.

[00:58:15] - [Speaker 1]
Love

[00:58:16] - [Speaker 2]
it. Have have either of you ever played resident evil Gaiden on Game Boy Color?

[00:58:20] - [Speaker 0]
I've heard of it. I've heard of that one.

[00:58:23] - [Speaker 1]
That's one of the games I'm trying to decide whether I'm gonna play it as an n 64 adjacent Game Boy game based on, like, Aaron making me do all those handheld games for the summer.

[00:58:32] - [Speaker 0]
I was making you do it like I held you at gunpoint or something.

[00:58:35] - [Speaker 1]
You literally did. You're like, we're you're gonna play ports of other console games. Come get back to me in a month. Dear Mike. I need to make a list of every n 64 game that might have a Game Boy Color, like like,

[00:58:50] - [Speaker 2]
game. Showing up at Aaron's office, and Aaron's just, like, sitting in a darkly lit room with a cigar. His mouth is like, so did you finish the game, sir?

[00:58:57] - [Speaker 0]
I'm holding your family ransom. Play these games. They're all

[00:59:01] - [Speaker 1]
That was never one of my Twitter posts for, like, three straight weeks was like, these are the four games I played this week, so Aaron didn't kill me.

[00:59:08] - [Speaker 0]
Go back and look. I'm gonna now. I I must have missed that shit.

[00:59:14] - [Speaker 1]
I I think I even tagged you in.

[00:59:16] - [Speaker 2]
Resident Evil Gaiden is a really weird one because it has exploration. It's got a story. There's a lot of story there. And it's got a combat system. And it's

[00:59:30] - [Speaker 1]
not a

[00:59:30] - [Speaker 0]
Oh, yeah. That's really

[00:59:31] - [Speaker 2]
not a normal one. It is literally like a sort of like a action turn based type of thing. And it's just it is a very weird game. I beat that, like, I wanna say last year because it was the that was the first game that I beat on my Steam Deck of all things.

[00:59:57] - [Speaker 1]
And It looks like like Shadowgate or something like the original NES. Like, it looks like a first person, like, corridor RPG kind of experience.

[01:00:07] - [Speaker 2]
It's not. It's it's a top down. Like, you're running around and shit.

[01:00:10] - [Speaker 1]
Well, I mean, like, the combat screens. Like, it's got your like, the characters as, cards on the bottom and then the enemies on top as sprites, which is very core, you know, like, like, a all sorts of, like, dungeon crawling first person, like, roguelike RPGs are set up in that way where it's just you don't see sprites of your characters or just cards across the bottom and you attack one at a time till the enemies on top. Like, it's got that feel. So anybody who didn't play this, me, looks at these and they're like, yeah. Hell yeah.

[01:00:42] - [Speaker 1]
Like, that looks like an RPG.

[01:00:44] - [Speaker 2]
And guess what? It's actually a pretty good game.

[01:00:47] - [Speaker 0]
I'm looking at it. It looks really sweet. Do you gain levels or XP, or is it just like Resident Evil where you just kill an enemy and they're dead? That's it.

[01:00:57] - [Speaker 2]
I can't remember. I don't think you do, but it's not something that jumps out at me right away. Like, that's not what I remember about it. I I just remember the the combat being very interesting. And So what

[01:01:12] - [Speaker 1]
you listed as an action adventure Okay. By two separate places I've been to so far. But once again, the basis of this conversation is who cares? Like,

[01:01:26] - [Speaker 0]
who cares what the genre says? Ultimately, who gives a shit?

[01:01:28] - [Speaker 2]
Who cares what I can thinks?

[01:01:31] - [Speaker 1]
It's just like review scores. Who cares?

[01:01:33] - [Speaker 2]
Like Yeah.

[01:01:33] - [Speaker 1]
Exactly. Affect you, then it changes the way that you feel about the game. So either

[01:01:38] - [Speaker 2]
you Yeah. Jeff Gertzman about your Diddy Kong racing review.

[01:01:41] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. Tell me the game's a 6.6.

[01:01:47] - [Speaker 0]
Yes. This is a good one, man.

[01:01:49] - [Speaker 1]
Are you arguing for Gaiden or again

[01:01:51] - [Speaker 2]
or I'm arguing for it.

[01:01:53] - [Speaker 1]
For it. So we decided it's got a narrative. It's got exploration.

[01:01:57] - [Speaker 2]
Yep.

[01:01:58] - [Speaker 1]
It's got we don't know about stats.

[01:02:00] - [Speaker 2]
It's got a it's got a specialized combat system.

[01:02:03] - [Speaker 1]
Yep. So combat. So it's three things. We don't know about, like, hidden math, but at least narrative exploration.

[01:02:11] - [Speaker 2]
Definitely hidden math because I know that there's certain zombies that are much harder than some of the other ones. And, like, it's almost like

[01:02:19] - [Speaker 1]
random random things?

[01:02:21] - [Speaker 2]
Yes.

[01:02:21] - [Speaker 1]
Because that would that's you. Okay. So enemies dropping random things.

[01:02:25] - [Speaker 2]
I think they yeah. Like, you'll you'll get, like, a first aid or, like, first aid spray or, like, a herb or something from them.

[01:02:30] - [Speaker 1]
It doesn't matter what it is. Yeah. So once again, we're at, like, four, four of six.

[01:02:37] - [Speaker 0]
So then it's

[01:02:38] - [Speaker 1]
up to you.

[01:02:40] - [Speaker 2]
It's a fucking RPG.

[01:02:41] - [Speaker 0]
It's an

[01:02:41] - [Speaker 2]
RPG, Mike. Come on.

[01:02:43] - [Speaker 1]
I trust

[01:02:43] - [Speaker 0]
you, man.

[01:02:44] - [Speaker 2]
I trust you too.

[01:02:46] - [Speaker 1]
That's 67%. I had to do the math because it's 54.

[01:02:49] - [Speaker 2]
60 seven percent an RPG. That's that's

[01:02:52] - [Speaker 1]
a At least. That's a pass. Least 67, at least. On a bell curve, that could be an ARPG.

[01:03:00] - [Speaker 0]
I've got I've got another good one for you guys. I I hope either of you has heard of this game before. Dark arms beast buster 90 or 1999. It's for the Neo Geo pocket color.

[01:03:16] - [Speaker 1]
What? No.

[01:03:17] - [Speaker 0]
Dark Arms Beast Buster 1999.

[01:03:20] - [Speaker 1]
I feel like you said that in a way, like, you knew we weren't gonna know what it was.

[01:03:25] - [Speaker 2]
I was just reading off off the screen. He's like, he in the middle of all this, he's typing in, like, what are the most debated RPGs of all time. And he's like, this game, I I wonder if you've played it. It's called dark arm.

[01:03:43] - [Speaker 0]
I was just trying to say the full name. So, like because we were talking with we were talking with with video game esoterica. He mentioned there's like a whole series of Dark Arms games. And so this one, was trying to

[01:03:57] - [Speaker 2]
like part of that?

[01:03:59] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah. Yeah. It's it's like a handheld version of that. But this one is a it's like a top down shooter RPG. How the fuck do I so, like, yeah, top down shooter.

[01:04:11] - [Speaker 0]
Do you shoot, like, zombies and werewolves and shit like that? And you you can capture them with your gun and use their parts to basically combine with your gun to make new, like, augmentations or abilities for your gun. And you I don't remember. I don't believe you gain XP and level up or anything like that. Like, you just gain.

[01:04:34] - [Speaker 0]
Oh. But it does but it does

[01:04:35] - [Speaker 1]
have a running catch number on the bottom for, out of 99, how many enemies you've caught, which seems like you're adding up to, like, max something, which one would argue is no different than an experience gauge.

[01:04:51] - [Speaker 0]
That's true. And, yeah, I think I think it's like you go back to the bit to your base or you go back to, like, a save point or something and you feed all of those materials to, like, the the sorcerer dude, and he enhances your abilities in certain ways depending on what you feed to it, shit like that. So, I mean, it's it's got a very RPG feel, and, you know, there's lots of exploration because you go all over the world map. There's a there's a story to it. Like, the story is not that great, but there is a story to it.

[01:05:21] - [Speaker 0]
I mean, I guess you don't really affect the world all that much because the world stays the same.

[01:05:26] - [Speaker 1]
That's the advertisement.

[01:05:27] - [Speaker 0]
Man, it's an action RPG. Yeah. I don't know. What do you I mean, I I feel like it takes maybe maybe, like, two or three of the six boxes, I would say.

[01:05:42] - [Speaker 2]
You know, I had somebody argue with me one time before that what made an RPG is it's a long game. No. Well,

[01:05:53] - [Speaker 1]
any any game's a long game if you suck at it.

[01:05:56] - [Speaker 0]
That's true. Like That's very true. I think Chrono Trigger only takes about maybe fifteen hours to beat. If you if you just go right through, we don't do any side stuff.

[01:06:09] - [Speaker 2]
Chrono Trigger's short, man.

[01:06:10] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah, it's super short.

[01:06:12] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. I played it without a guide and without allowing people to give me any sort of help whatsoever. And I think it took me twenty. And that's only because I had to keep like first of all, like, I was probably grinding when I didn't have to. Doing the mic thing.

[01:06:24] - [Speaker 1]
Yep. Doing that thing. And then I was I was playing it in in small chunks, like, you know, forty five minutes a night.

[01:06:29] - [Speaker 0]
So Oh, yeah.

[01:06:30] - [Speaker 1]
I was pro so the you know, that reacclamation point to a game where you're like, where the fuck was I?

[01:06:35] - [Speaker 0]
What was I doing? Where the

[01:06:37] - [Speaker 2]
fuck is fuck, dude? I hate that shit so much.

[01:06:40] - [Speaker 1]
And I'm old. So, I mean, it just gets worse every day. Every day it gets worse.

[01:06:45] - [Speaker 2]
That dementia is in there. I know it.

[01:06:47] - [Speaker 1]
That's that there's really been a learning curve with Dark Souls because they come back after not playing for a day, and I'm like, what was I doing? And then you just fall off of, there's a bridge with one board missing. You're like, oh, yeah. That's what I was doing. Quitting because of this bridge.

[01:07:01] - [Speaker 1]
So Just happened to me today, by the way.

[01:07:08] - [Speaker 0]
Shit. Man.

[01:07:10] - [Speaker 2]
So something else, again, I I can't go a day in my life without talking about Gaomon. So Mhmm. I I feel like I I need to bring this up because Before

[01:07:24] - [Speaker 0]
before we get to another game

[01:07:26] - [Speaker 2]
Oh, were you taking

[01:07:27] - [Speaker 0]
a break? Break? Yeah. Let's take an ad break.

[01:07:29] - [Speaker 2]
Take an ad break. We should take an ad break so I can pour myself another whiskey.

[01:07:32] - [Speaker 1]
I love the advertisers.

[01:07:35] - [Speaker 0]
They're great. They're ad

[01:07:36] - [Speaker 2]
the advertisers are what

[01:07:37] - [Speaker 0]
keep For product placement. Yeah. That's right.

[01:07:40] - [Speaker 2]
Keep us fed.

[01:07:42] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah. We'll be right back.

[01:07:43] - [Speaker 2]
BRB.

[01:07:56] - [Speaker 0]
This episode of SuperPOD saga was brought to you today by the real MVPs, the real sponsors of the show, the patrons, the official superstars, all of you are are just awesome, fabulous, handsome, adorable, cute. I don't know what other words to throw in here, but you're all awesome. Every single one of you, It really means so much to me. It means the the world, the galaxy, the cosmos, something bigger than the cosmos. I don't think there is anything bigger, but if there was, I I would love you all that much.

[01:08:29] - [Speaker 0]
I'm stretching my arms out like this right now. So, yeah, let's thank the patrons. A Novel Consul, Jared Schrader, Jamison Empire, Adam Finneas, Trey, Adam Forrester, Jeff Miners, Jenny e, Kevin Demo, Thrak, and mister Quang. All of you are your official superstars. You guys are the best.

[01:08:52] - [Speaker 0]
If I could meet every single one of you in person and give you a a gigantic hug, a high five, and buy you a sandwich or something, I absolutely would because it, goddamn it. I love every single last one of you. Thank you patrons for sponsoring this this episode and every single episode to come of Super Pod Saga. Thank you a lot. I I mean it.

[01:09:13] - [Speaker 0]
Thank you so much. If you're a fan of coffee and you're looking for something different, I think we've got just the thing for you. That's Bones Coffee. Bones Coffee is not your usual coffee company. Of course, it's all sugar free, gluten free, all that stuff because it's just coffee.

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[01:10:56] - [Speaker 0]
And if if you're not just in the market for you can also get some sweet mugs. They've got lots of cool shirts. They've got all sorts of different brewing equipment like French presses, stuff like that. Just head on over to bonescoffee.com or, again, use the link in our episode description and get 20% off. Get yourself a new interesting flavor and spice up your morning routine with bones coffee.

[01:11:21] - [Speaker 0]
I really hope you enjoy. I'm a really big fan of it, and I hope you find one that really hooks you. Thank you so much for listening. Have a good one. Coming this fall to a theater near you.

[01:11:48] - [Speaker 0]
It's

[01:11:50] - [Speaker 2]
What? Twisted tales of hot and ready.

[01:11:52] - [Speaker 0]
What should be the the title for the Francis Boatman sequel?

[01:11:57] - [Speaker 2]
It's hot. Are we getting are we doing the ad now? What I I don't know what this ad is. I don't you're gonna have to take it away at all. Improv in.

[01:12:04] - [Speaker 0]
So okay. So I'll I'll I'll start with, like, the whole thing. And then we'll workshop a title as I go along. So we got coming this fall to a theater near you. Francis was a a cop by day, and due to a a freak thunderstorm slash atomic radiation accident.

[01:12:23] - [Speaker 0]
He was morphed into a half man, half boat hybrid at night. He he fights maritime crimes at night on only on the sea. If he he has to he has to be at a in a shipyard at night. Otherwise, if he turns into a boat while he's in his house, holy shit. Yeah.

[01:12:39] - [Speaker 0]
You you know, it's it's it's Francis Boat, man. You liked the first movie. You thought it was great. Now it's time for boatman to Electric Boogaloo.

[01:12:52] - [Speaker 1]
No. Return of John Toon. John Toon? What the fuck? What?

[01:12:58] - [Speaker 1]
You you like pontoon, but it's John Toon. It's survival. It's it's the bad guy.

[01:13:03] - [Speaker 0]
John John Toon. Oh my god.

[01:13:11] - [Speaker 1]
I'm so much don't know any boats.

[01:13:13] - [Speaker 2]
Yeah. It's like and and his arch nemesis hover Matt. Yeah.

[01:13:24] - [Speaker 1]
They really like to play Dave Ray sixty four. Dave Ray. These are just names now. Sorry. Sorry, sponsor.

[01:13:39] - [Speaker 1]
Water.

[01:13:43] - [Speaker 0]
Boat noise. Dude, dude. That's the slogan for the movie. It's Boatman two, Maritime Boogaloo. He's a Yeah.

[01:13:54] - [Speaker 0]
When a

[01:13:54] - [Speaker 1]
I'm still sticking with Return of John Toon is

[01:13:57] - [Speaker 0]
obviously John Toon is great. John Toon. Yeah. John Toon, he's back for revenge. He's he's stealing the

[01:14:08] - [Speaker 2]
the piss out of the ocean.

[01:14:11] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah. Stealing the piss. He's he's he's stealing the water. There's no ocean Make

[01:14:17] - [Speaker 1]
it topical. He's adding microplastics.

[01:14:19] - [Speaker 0]
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Because he's a party

[01:14:21] - [Speaker 2]
Saving the turtles.

[01:14:22] - [Speaker 0]
He's a party pontoon boat. He's the all all

[01:14:25] - [Speaker 2]
the bombs. You mean? Yeah. Party John tune. My bad.

[01:14:32] - [Speaker 0]
Boys, help me out.

[01:14:34] - [Speaker 1]
Atlantic John tune. Slowly grinding up detergent bottles and nonrecyclable colored plastics of all assorted types and poisoning the water supply.

[01:14:47] - [Speaker 2]
And fuck Aquaman. Yeah. Beautiful.

[01:14:53] - [Speaker 1]
That's the trailer. He's just just like he's just flipping off a poster of Aquaman.

[01:14:58] - [Speaker 0]
John Toone took Francis Boatman's kids, and he's holding them ransom. He he's holding them in his in his in own tugboat. In his boathouse. I was gonna say, yeah, this is his houseboat named Ted. Ted's holding him a ransom.

[01:15:17] - [Speaker 1]
Well, don't be ridiculous. The houseboat doesn't have to

[01:15:19] - [Speaker 0]
have a name. That's true. It's just a

[01:15:21] - [Speaker 1]
regular houseboat. Yeah. It's just a regular house.

[01:15:24] - [Speaker 0]
I wanna I wanna eventually have, like, a, like, a whole x men kind of universe for, like, different human boat.

[01:15:32] - [Speaker 1]
The Emperor's? Yeah. Extended extended boatman universe.

[01:15:37] - [Speaker 0]
It was it's the same, like, atomic spill in the water and then lightning, and then they all, like, were like, ah. Francis, I know I'm a boat. I mean, he's a fucking boat. I'm in constant pain. He's just got arms and shit on this boat.

[01:15:55] - [Speaker 1]
That's that's my secret, Aaron. I'm always a boat.

[01:16:06] - [Speaker 0]
I'm fucking trolling, dude. It's like dude, this is exactly like static shock, but, like, on the ocean with boats. Coming this fall, will John will fucking Francis Boatman save his family from It's Boatman. Boatman. Will Boatman save his family from John Tune and his evil houseboat?

[01:16:35] - [Speaker 0]
Find find out this fall on Boatman two Maritime Boogaloo. Coming this fall

[01:16:46] - [Speaker 2]
on a Sunday.

[01:16:48] - [Speaker 0]
Forward slash presenter live. Come in, Arson.

[01:16:53] - [Speaker 2]
Burn your family to the ground on the ocean floor.

[01:16:56] - [Speaker 0]
I'm in constant pain. They have old T Rex arms coming up.

[01:17:01] - [Speaker 2]
My dad fucked my mom too hard and made me a Sea Doo.

[01:17:06] - [Speaker 1]
Maybe we'll get a return of Metalocalypse, and they can do Mermaider again, but Mermaider too. We're back. You

[01:17:37] - [Speaker 2]
can't just you you gotta there's gotta be a Okay.

[01:17:41] - [Speaker 0]
Okay. Yeah. Let's redo it. Take us in, Mike.

[01:17:44] - [Speaker 1]
And 5678.

[01:17:51] - [Speaker 0]
That's. Hey, we're back. The lobby. There we go. Yeah.

[01:17:55] - [Speaker 0]
My fucking my neck hurts so much. That was so good.

[01:17:58] - [Speaker 2]
My my Reese's and my snacks.

[01:18:01] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah. So alright. Alright, Jerry. Go. You were going with Goemon?

[01:18:06] - [Speaker 2]
Was I going with something? Alright. Goemon. I've never ever brought this franchise up, so I figured You never talked about it's it's about time that I do, which fun fact at the time of this recording, video game esoterica posted a video. You know how Majora's Mask got that really cool, like, PC port?

[01:18:25] - [Speaker 2]
Yeah. The recon. Or like yeah. So they just did that

[01:18:28] - [Speaker 0]
with Mystical Ninja 64.

[01:18:31] - [Speaker 2]
It's now on PC.

[01:18:32] - [Speaker 1]
60 frames per second.

[01:18:34] - [Speaker 2]
Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep.

[01:18:35] - [Speaker 1]
Yep. Yep.

[01:18:35] - [Speaker 2]
Yep. So, yeah, the Mystical Ninja games. And I don't even mean Mystical Ninja 64 specifically because, like, Mystical Ninja 64 is essentially just Zelda. Like, that's what that game is at its core, really. You're, you know, exploring areas, and it's an action adventure game.

[01:18:56] - [Speaker 2]
I don't know what the RPG mount elements would be. I guess, like, there's I guess you could say that it has a a stylized combat system because Mhmm. You're switching between characters, and each character has a different set of, like, actions that they can do and even like abilities that help progress through the through the game.

[01:19:17] - [Speaker 1]
So it's got the Metroid style progression. Yeah. Because you need to switch the characters to get through places.

[01:19:23] - [Speaker 2]
Exactly. There's no leveling system and there's no experience points, but there is there's like a currency that you can spend to get certain items and stuff. But like, I wouldn't really consider that an RPG element.

[01:19:36] - [Speaker 1]
But it does have narrative and exploration.

[01:19:38] - [Speaker 2]
There is a narrative. Yep. There is definitely a narrative. Lots of exploration. That's kinda like the thing with that game.

[01:19:45] - [Speaker 2]
Mhmm. But the old games as well, again, they're they're side scrollers, but they have a lot of RPG elements. There's fucking towns, dude. Like, that actually I forgot. That's one thing that jumps out at me.

[01:20:01] - [Speaker 2]
Like, when I play an RPG and I'm like, dude. Oh, yeah. Town. Does it have fucking towns? Because if it doesn't have towns, I don't wanna play a game without towns.

[01:20:12] - [Speaker 2]
And when I played Dragon Quest 11 for the first time, I was like, holy fuck. Yes. This game has fucking towns. And not just towns, town towns. Like Yeah.

[01:20:21] - [Speaker 2]
They all have different Town town.

[01:20:23] - [Speaker 0]
They'll have different accents and shit too, dude.

[01:20:26] - [Speaker 2]
Yeah. And, like, each town has, like, its own feel. Like, you walk into this town and it's like, oh, like, there's a certain layout to it. There's, like, you know, certain characters. Like, it has its the town itself is a character.

[01:20:40] - [Speaker 2]
And for me, towns have always been a big thing. You know, even like Ocarina of Time, you got the Kokore Village.

[01:20:51] - [Speaker 1]
Classic RV town.

[01:20:53] - [Speaker 2]
Yeah. But, like, there's something about having towns in a game that really make it feel like an RPG for me. Like towns and towns, dungeons and fucking castles.

[01:21:07] - [Speaker 0]
And fucking castles. Yeah.

[01:21:09] - [Speaker 1]
Is fucking that you brought up towns because I believe that two of the RPGs you've mentioned so far were hybrid heaven, which has no town because you're all in one area. And you brought up evil, which has no towns because you're outside in the Mesozoic era eating dinosaur bones. So

[01:21:26] - [Speaker 0]
Two two dudes out of 10.

[01:21:28] - [Speaker 1]
It did get two so you've hit narrative and exploration, then we just don't know about the rest of it. Maybe maybe character world progression you could argue for Goemon. Maybe 50% in RPG or close

[01:21:38] - [Speaker 2]
to 50%. Definitely a thing.

[01:21:39] - [Speaker 0]
Don't you like there's there's

[01:21:41] - [Speaker 2]
a world map. There's a world map.

[01:21:44] - [Speaker 0]
And don't you like unlock? I know on the SNES one, could buy new moves or unlock new moves somehow. So like that kind of feeds into a little bit, I think. Unless I'm thinking of something different.

[01:21:58] - [Speaker 1]
I haven't played the NES one, so.

[01:22:00] - [Speaker 2]
Yeah, like the all the the sidescroller ones on on the Super Nintendo are like they have towns, there's there's progression, and, like, there's a narrative. I think the only real thing that's kind of missing there, like, you could argue that it doesn't have a comp like, stylized combat, like, some kind of a specialized combat other than like it being like a

[01:22:23] - [Speaker 0]
hack and slash, I guess, is what it

[01:22:26] - [Speaker 2]
is because you're just kind of going around hitting stuff. And it's like a platformer in that sense. But like, yeah, there's definitely exploration in the game too because, like, there's, like, veering paths through the level, but it kinda just pushes you forward. Like, there's no but then again, there's there's backtracking too. Like, you'll have to go back to, like, towns and shit to, like, talk to somebody and be like, oh, I need to get this thing so I can get this pass so I can get to this next area and stuff like that.

[01:22:53] - [Speaker 2]
And, like, you'll have to, like, talk to somebody and be like, hey. I've seen this fucking thing on this road the other day, bro. And, like, you should go see it. And then, like, you go see it, it's like, oh, it's just this fucking enemy. And then you kill it, and then you go back to the town.

[01:23:05] - [Speaker 2]
He's like, yeah, man. Here's your pass. And then you fucking just go.

[01:23:09] - [Speaker 1]
But that's one would argue that's core RPG stuff. Like, that's every fetch quest ever. Like, it doesn't matter that it's a that it's a three d action adventure game. It's doing RPG stuff.

[01:23:19] - [Speaker 2]
Yep. A %.

[01:23:21] - [Speaker 1]
So one of the other things that we brought up earlier was the whole sports thing. I think we should just conquer that

[01:23:26] - [Speaker 2]
before we get too deep into this. Football manager?

[01:23:29] - [Speaker 1]
Well, like, any So dude. So we can start with on

[01:23:32] - [Speaker 0]
that vlog. It's nuts. Oh god. I I

[01:23:34] - [Speaker 1]
and I used to play head coach. Like, I don't know if you guys like NFL football at all. Like, you're Canadian. I don't know if you like real, like, football with with hands, but, I mean We prefer pucks. I love I'm actually love hockey.

[01:23:48] - [Speaker 1]
So I was like but and so super blood hockey is another one of those games like golf story, which was the game I was gonna start with. So let's start one with start with a sports game that's definitively RBG golf story or things like the Mario Golf new Game Boy Color games.

[01:24:02] - [Speaker 2]
Games are like a fucking Pokemon game with golf in the middle of it.

[01:24:06] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. So while they lack combat, one could argue that instead of, so Aaron brought up that there needs to be bosses, but the boss doesn't necessarily need to be like something you have to defeat with combat. You can defeat them with, you know, golf.

[01:24:22] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah. Whatever, like, the main Yeah. Gameplay shit is.

[01:24:26] - [Speaker 1]
And outside of that, it has everything. You know, narrative, you unlock the world. There's very clear character progression because you level up all of your golf stats. And the you know, obviously, there's math because golf is an imperfect science. Like, it's not like you hit a a a the same a pattern every time, and it does the same thing.

[01:24:43] - [Speaker 1]
There's still wind and lie and what club you're using. It's like different items and different you know? So there's all the stuff that's in an RPG, but somebody has when you're suggesting that game to somebody, you have to hope that they can jump jump the shark or whatever right away. Like, can I turn a sports game into an RPG in my head before I start? Because if they can't, they're gonna be like the people who argue with me out loud saying, well, Golf Story is a golf game.

[01:25:10] - [Speaker 1]
It's called Golf Story. There's it's very clear what it is. It doesn't matter if it has RPG elements. You're still playing golf 50% of the time in the game. Same with Mario Golf.

[01:25:20] - [Speaker 1]
You're still playing golf 50% of the time. So then is a sports game a sports game or a sports RPG if the thing you're doing most of the time is still the sport? So the other really big ones are the, like, the NCAA football games, the college sports football games, or even college basketball games because they have extremely deep recruitment processes. Like, between seasons, you take your coach and your recruiting team and you go out and you have, like, text lists and dialogue options.

[01:25:53] - [Speaker 0]
This sounded like it was like persona, but, like, football.

[01:25:56] - [Speaker 1]
It's exactly that. Yep. You're going to like, alright. I'm gonna I need a running back or I need a, you know, point guard. So let's let's just let's do football, though.

[01:26:04] - [Speaker 1]
I need a running back. So you get a list of, like, 60 running backs that are available this off season in the country that go to these high schools. And you need to decide out of 60, like, what five you're going to recruit the hardest. So you allocate experience points.

[01:26:18] - [Speaker 2]
Bradley Bradley

[01:26:19] - [Speaker 1]
Bradley You pick all the Bradleys. You pick all the Bradleys, and you allocate all your recruitment points to the Bradleys. And then and then depending on how you talk to them and what things you try to sell them on, like, our stadiums the best, our weight room is great, you know, we have good environment and it goes, then you pass a week, the stats have changed. You have to decide if you're going to continue the conversation in that manner or if you're going to change your thing, you know, change your approach. And then you get one of them.

[01:26:47] - [Speaker 1]
You know, you win. Your recruitment process wins. And then it's about character progression.

[01:26:51] - [Speaker 0]
Like, what

[01:26:52] - [Speaker 1]
what drills are you gonna have them do? Like, are you gonna have them do speed drills so they level up their speed? Like, are you gonna have them do catching drills so that they're better out of the backfield catching the ball? Like, sports games are are hard RPG, like, elements. Like like, if you took the football element and just simulated all of the football games and didn't play any of the actual football, you just let the computer simulate the football games and just did everything else, it would just be an RPG.

[01:27:18] - [Speaker 1]
100%. It would hit every one of the beat points on our thing minus maybe be, like, world progress. But even then

[01:27:27] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah.

[01:27:27] - [Speaker 1]
But there's a world map. Like, you're still going around and, like, going to high schools and recruiting. Yep. But half of the time you're playing football. So then if you can't, in your head, work past this being a football game, it's never gonna be an RPG to you.

[01:27:44] - [Speaker 1]
Like, it's it's just not gonna happen for you. But for some people, that's as close to RPG as they get. Like, people play fantasy football Not knowing that fantasy football is just Dungeon and Dragons for for jocks. Like, you know, like, our fantasy sports. It's just numbers crunching.

[01:28:00] - [Speaker 1]
You're just picking names. You're not playing football. You're looking at a list of statistics, and you're picking players for your for your fake fantasy team. Like you're building a roster of of something you're not playing. That's That I mean, that's an RPG.

[01:28:15] - [Speaker 1]
That's a tabletop RPG. Like that's what fantasy football is because you're not play it's like, you can't affect the games at all. Just how you manage your team. Just the things that you can control, and it's all math. So if you take the the sports out of sports games, they are probably some of the most comprehensive RPG games on any system and probably the ones that are most popular because I just think

[01:28:39] - [Speaker 0]
It's true.

[01:28:39] - [Speaker 1]
The thing today that Madden 97 was one of the best selling games of 1996 over games like, you know, Resident Evil and stuff like that. So so so many people have played them, but probably don't consider them RPGs because you have to play football.

[01:28:54] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah. Same with, like, MLB the show. And I'll I I might even kind of try to argue, like, the same with, like, the Forza games because, like, you gain, like, a driver level and that unlocks more cars. And then, of course, you have a heavy emphasis on stats for your cars and how you can tune them and,

[01:29:14] - [Speaker 1]
like Yeah.

[01:29:15] - [Speaker 0]
But at its core, yeah, it's a it's a racing game.

[01:29:18] - [Speaker 1]
No. It's a car PG.

[01:29:20] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah. Car PG.

[01:29:21] - [Speaker 2]
What would you guys say are like your like, if you're off the top of your head, top three RPGs in your, like, gaming life, what are they?

[01:29:34] - [Speaker 0]
Final Fantasy nine, Earthbound, Chrono Cross.

[01:29:41] - [Speaker 2]
Mike?

[01:29:42] - [Speaker 1]
I mean, if we're going by favorites, my list would be different. But based on, like, which games I think were the best that I've played, Final Fantasy two in The United States, Grandia two, and then Borderlands. One. And I don't know if people think Borderlands is an RPG, but that's, like, core RPG. And if you don't think Borderlands is an RPG, then I put Diablo two would be my next most played, I suppose.

[01:30:06] - [Speaker 0]
You're just trying to piss people off.

[01:30:08] - [Speaker 1]
Well, like, well, do you think Borderlands is an RPG, or is that a first person?

[01:30:11] - [Speaker 0]
It's got the RPG feel because, yeah, you have that XP bar, like, prominent all the time and the skill trees and the gear and, like, lots of numbers, like, lots of numbers. It's it's definitely

[01:30:23] - [Speaker 1]
a hard but that's a hard hurdle for some people too because you're in first person and there's guns.

[01:30:27] - [Speaker 0]
That's true, man.

[01:30:28] - [Speaker 2]
Yeah. Well, I mean, look at fallout. There's literally like, in fallout three, I mean, yeah, you can change the perspective, but, like, it it literally has VATS, which is, like, almost a turn based fucking system.

[01:30:43] - [Speaker 1]
But that's usually the thing that people used to argue that borderline isn't because it lacks the VATS. Like, it lacks the the combat mechanic that makes

[01:30:52] - [Speaker 2]
But there's still math. There's still stats.

[01:30:54] - [Speaker 1]
Oh, yeah. No. It's all the stuff, but the the the feeling of the VAT system makes Fallout feel more like an RPG because you can stop and strategize and play it like a turn based game almost. Yeah. Because where Borderlands never has that.

[01:31:10] - [Speaker 1]
It's always real time in Borderlands.

[01:31:12] - [Speaker 2]
Yeah. That's true.

[01:31:13] - [Speaker 1]
I guess you can probably good.

[01:31:16] - [Speaker 2]
If you're if you're wondering, my three are Super Mario RPG. Secret of Mana. Secret of Mana two. So second Densetsu three. Ocarina of Time.

[01:31:26] - [Speaker 2]
No. Final Fantasy nine.

[01:31:30] - [Speaker 0]
Final Fantasy what?

[01:31:32] - [Speaker 2]
Nine.

[01:31:33] - [Speaker 0]
Oh, hell yeah. Hell yeah. It's my man right there.

[01:31:36] - [Speaker 2]
It was it was a return to the classics.

[01:31:38] - [Speaker 0]
I was I was gonna say Destiny and like Destiny two, those are kind of almost like hard sells as RPGs as well.

[01:31:47] - [Speaker 2]
They're like

[01:31:47] - [Speaker 0]
because like MMOs almost. Yeah. And, like, not even like MMORPG to a point.

[01:31:54] - [Speaker 2]
Some people argue that they're not MMOs either.

[01:31:57] - [Speaker 1]
Just think think of it like first person Diablo, and then

[01:32:00] - [Speaker 0]
you can Basically.

[01:32:01] - [Speaker 1]
Can then you can tie the thread because they're first person Diablo with guns. Small party

[01:32:08] - [Speaker 0]
Just like border lanes.

[01:32:09] - [Speaker 1]
Massively multi lane. Yeah. Yeah. Like you're playing with a party of four to eight instead of a party of a billion, you know, like whichever, you know, like, world like World of Warcraft. Like, there's a difference between Diablo and World of Warcraft, but we know that they're both online and they're both RPGs, or at least in in my mind, are.

[01:32:27] - [Speaker 2]
What's really funny, when Greg and Beth and I started Super Ghost, we pretty much started that because we got into Final Fantasy 14 online at the same time, and we pretty much just played that fucking game exclusively for a full year because we went through every single expansion together. And that was a weird thing for me because, like, Greg already liked MMOs. Like, he he he played Wow. And Beth was just like, I love Final Fantasy games, so I'm willing to check this out. I don't like MMOs, or at least I didn't think I did until I started playing that game.

[01:33:08] - [Speaker 2]
And it was weird because I was trying to find ways to disconnect myself from it being an MMO to the point where I played that game exclusively with a controller, and I completely altered the UI because it's fully customizable. I basically made that game play exactly like Xenoblade, and I made it look like Xenoblade. Like, it looked like like, if you see me playing the game, you'd be like, oh, this is a this is just like a what what game is this? Like, you wouldn't like, I turn off, like, all of the other people, like, in the world, like, other players turn their names and shit off because I don't give a fuck about them. I'm here for the story.

[01:33:49] - [Speaker 2]
Like, I'm not here to play online with people because the story is so fucking good in Final Fantasy 14 that I was like, this is all I'm here for. I mean, I got my other friends. So it was basically to me, it was like a single player RPG action RPG that I could play co op. That's how it felt to me. Because I didn't give a shit about, like, fucking playing with a bunch of other people to the point where, like, you know, they'd be, like, trying to queue up, like, doing, like, the raids and stuff, and I'd be like, I don't know, man.

[01:34:19] - [Speaker 2]
Like, I don't really care. I'm just here for the story. If the raids have a cool story part,

[01:34:24] - [Speaker 0]
then I'll go play it.

[01:34:24] - [Speaker 2]
But, like, that's not what I'm here for. I'm not here to hang out with fucking people. But we we ended up doing that after. Like, got sucked in. It was bad.

[01:34:34] - [Speaker 2]
It was a bad time. But it was a good time. It was good time. It was a good time and a

[01:34:37] - [Speaker 0]
bad time.

[01:34:38] - [Speaker 1]
So what you're doing is manually limiting yourself.

[01:34:41] - [Speaker 2]
Yes.

[01:34:41] - [Speaker 1]
Like, you're taking elements out of a game that is pretty definitively an RPG, and you're making it less an RPG, but still an experience that you feel like is an RPG. Yes. Yeah. Correct?

[01:34:53] - [Speaker 2]
Yeah. There's not a lot of games that you can do that with.

[01:34:56] - [Speaker 1]
So here's another example of a combative version of that, but it's forced on us. We pretty much agree that the Pokemon games are RPGs. The base Pokemon games, you know, red, blue, whatever are RPGs, correct? Yeah. Yep.

[01:35:10] - [Speaker 1]
So then if you take elements like exploration and collection out of that, you're left with Pokemon Stadium. Is Pokemon Stadium an RPG?

[01:35:23] - [Speaker 0]
I wouldn't think so, man.

[01:35:24] - [Speaker 2]
There's no exploration.

[01:35:26] - [Speaker 0]
That's more of like

[01:35:27] - [Speaker 1]
But that's just one thing out of six. Right?

[01:35:29] - [Speaker 2]
Is there a story?

[01:35:31] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. What's the story?

[01:35:33] - [Speaker 0]
For which one? Coliseum or stadium?

[01:35:36] - [Speaker 1]
Either Stadium 123, Coliseum.

[01:35:39] - [Speaker 0]
I don't know.

[01:35:39] - [Speaker 2]
So so let's There's three.

[01:35:41] - [Speaker 1]
I own all three of them, Jerry.

[01:35:43] - [Speaker 0]
Let's slap the brakes on this guy because, like, I know for sure Colosseum, like, there's a whole overworld and, like, a different story.

[01:35:52] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. Like That's a GameCube one.

[01:35:54] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah. That that's for sure. Like that and, like, XD, those are definitely full blown, like Pokemon RPGs. Like

[01:36:00] - [Speaker 1]
Yeah. Gale of

[01:36:01] - [Speaker 0]
Like, Stadium, I would almost kinda put it in, like, not like a fighting game, but, like, like, a one on one versus kind of thing because, like, yeah, it doesn't have like the same feel as like a mainline Pokemon game.

[01:36:16] - [Speaker 1]
Correct. It doesn't have the feel, but it does have the math. It does have the combat. It has the character stats and items. Yeah.

[01:36:25] - [Speaker 1]
Like, it's got character

[01:36:26] - [Speaker 2]
Does have random items and shit? Like, you get items

[01:36:29] - [Speaker 1]
for No. But you're using item you do get you do acquire items from mini games and stuff like that. You know, all the other stuff that goes along with the main game.

[01:36:37] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah.

[01:36:37] - [Speaker 1]
It just doesn't have exploration outside of moving on to the next tournament, and it doesn't really have an overlapping narrative other than to be the best. Like every other Pokemon that ever was. Well, but, like, that's the thing. If you think about, like, Pokemon Red how many thing how many things does Red say in Pokemon Red? Like, how many lines of dialogue?

[01:36:57] - [Speaker 0]
Talking none other than, like, yes, no,

[01:36:59] - [Speaker 2]
silent. Zero.

[01:37:00] - [Speaker 1]
So the narrative is collect the Pokemon and be the best. Like, there is a story we know it's there, but it has nothing to do with what you're doing. It's just there whether you do it or not. You can skip all the lines of dialogue. It doesn't affect the Pokemon game because you're the goal is to catch them all.

[01:37:15] - [Speaker 1]
Like, says it right on the fucking box. It's to catch them all and be the best. It has nothing to do with the narrative. So the traditional Pokemon Look. Don't necessarily

[01:37:24] - [Speaker 2]
on the box. Look at it.

[01:37:28] - [Speaker 1]
And it they've gotten better with it over the over the over the years. You know? Like, obviously, now we have much more elaborate storylines with Pokemon. Even like when you got to the, like, Legends, RCS games, there's a pretty big, like, text wall at the beginning. There's a half hour of stuff before you get going.

[01:37:42] - [Speaker 1]
But in the red and blue era, which tie into the Pokemon Stadium games, there was very little. Just like the Pokemon Stadium games have very little. But if you just set somebody down in front of the Pokemon Stadium battle system and said and put gave them a team against another team. That's And didn't show them what happened before you got to that point and said, can acquire

[01:38:04] - [Speaker 2]
your team though. You don't actually

[01:38:06] - [Speaker 1]
like can a You can rent a team or you can plug them into the transfer pack and bring all of your Pokemon from Pokemon Red and Blue to Pokemon Stadium. So you can bring all of your RPG earned characters with you to Pokemon Stadium.

[01:38:20] - [Speaker 2]
But then that just seems like an add on. It doesn't really seem like a fully fleshed out RPG. It's it's it's like a it's a companion to another game that kind of uses the other game. Like, I wouldn't say like, I'm still on the fence about this being an RPG.

[01:38:40] - [Speaker 1]
I could To me, is Like, what you said is you're, like, feeling like RPG, though. So you took Final Fantasy 13, and you chopped out a bunch of stuff that you didn't wanna do. Correct?

[01:38:52] - [Speaker 2]
Four 14 online. Yeah.

[01:38:53] - [Speaker 1]
14 online. Sorry. Not 13. 14. 14.

[01:38:56] - [Speaker 1]
So you took 14 and all of these elements, and you decided which ones you wanna engage with. I don't wanna do raids. I don't wanna interact with other players. I don't wanna do any of the MMO stuff. I just wanna hang out with my friends, and I just wanna do stuff single player.

[01:39:10] - [Speaker 1]
So like taking Pokemon and deciding I don't wanna do the exploration. I don't wanna follow a story. I just wanna take my Pokemon and I wanna battle them. Is that not like self imposing a pile of rules to make that the RPG that you want to play? Like what if people just want to battle their Pokemon in an RPG setting, which is Pokemon Stadium?

[01:39:31] - [Speaker 2]
Okay. Yeah, just let go

[01:39:32] - [Speaker 0]
of my That's true, man. Yeah. Here's here's another good one for you though. Like, how familiar are you guys with, like, the newer Paper Mario games? Like, Origami King or

[01:39:44] - [Speaker 2]
even like before Origami King was so good. But also

[01:39:46] - [Speaker 1]
I mean, I really like I really like Sticker Star and people don't like it.

[01:39:51] - [Speaker 2]
I've heard that that got, like, shit on, like, horrifically when it came out, and then people were

[01:39:57] - [Speaker 0]
like, wait. That bad.

[01:39:58] - [Speaker 2]
This is not a terrible game. Yeah. Is it the Wii U?

[01:40:02] - [Speaker 1]
People wanted was for Nintendo to make it's a no. The three d s one. Color Splash is the Wii U one. What people wanted was after Thousand Year Door, they wanted Nintendo to remake Thousand Year Door with a different story every year for the next eight years. And what Nintendo did instead was like, Nope, we're gonna make Super Paper Mario, then we're gonna make Color Splash, we're gonna make Sticker Star.

[01:40:21] - [Speaker 1]
We're gonna do two more inside stories, and then we're gonna do, Origami King, and they're all gonna be wildly different, and you're just gonna buy them, and we did.

[01:40:31] - [Speaker 2]
That's true. But now that brother ship's coming out, that definitely looks like a throwback to the very first one.

[01:40:40] - [Speaker 0]
It is. I think

[01:40:41] - [Speaker 1]
But Nintendo said we're gonna do stuff crazy instead of remaking the same game, and I think that we should praise them for that as opposed to dumping on them for not making because everybody said if you play any Mario RPG game after thousand year door or any paper Mario game after that, you're just doing it wrong. And it's always the person with, like, the biggest neck, chin, beard you've ever seen in your life. Like For real, man. Dominating the whole profile picture, and they're always the people who say that.

[01:41:06] - [Speaker 0]
That's cool. Circles.

[01:41:07] - [Speaker 2]
It's always this angle too.

[01:41:10] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah. Just like Yeah.

[01:41:14] - [Speaker 1]
Dude. You can't see it at home, listeners, because you're not viewers, but it was it was perfect. It's exactly what you think it is.

[01:41:23] - [Speaker 0]
Man, it is. So like so with Origami King and even like no. I've I've never played Super Paper Mario actually, but like with Origami King, there's a lot less like like there's no XP system or whatever the the the XP system was. There's no like they've kind of not necessarily watered it down, but I guess, like, quite a few of, the traditional RPG elements out of it, but it's still it's still feels like an RPG. But I guess, if you were to, like, push the game onto somebody that has never played Paper Mario before, they don't know what Paper Mario well, I guess, I mean, I'm sure they know what Paper Mario is, but even if they haven't played it, it should feel like an RPG to them.

[01:42:09] - [Speaker 0]
But I don't know. What do you guys feel about that?

[01:42:12] - [Speaker 1]
I think it is. But I totally understand people who think it isn't because it's lack it's lacking traditional RPG elements because they've tried to explore what they can do with the series. Yeah. Which is

[01:42:24] - [Speaker 2]
Well, again what more talk about like the

[01:42:25] - [Speaker 0]
whole yeah.

[01:42:26] - [Speaker 2]
Yeah. The that's the whole point of this conversation really today is like, you know, at the start of this near the start of it, I said, you know, does something that has RPG elements automatically qualify it to be an RPG? And I feel like we've kind of narrowed it down to like, it's a big maybe. And it's like, yeah, it's it comes down to personal preference really at the end of the day. And Mike, you said it very well at the beginning of this, too.

[01:42:53] - [Speaker 2]
It's all about gatekeeping. It's someone trying to be like, no, I know what an RPG is. So you listen to me because I've been playing them for fucking thirty years, and you're like, yeah. Well, I invented Dungeons and Dragons,

[01:43:06] - [Speaker 0]
so I don't give a fuck.

[01:43:09] - [Speaker 1]
And that's why every time somebody tells me a game on the n 64 isn't an RPG, I add another one to the list to be annoying. Because I'm reverse gatekeeping. I'm gonna force my interests on you.

[01:43:22] - [Speaker 2]
Denture denture

[01:43:23] - [Speaker 1]
every time. Yeah. It's close.

[01:43:26] - [Speaker 0]
Denture to Is that the train Yeah. It's close. Oh, yeah.

[01:43:30] - [Speaker 2]
Go get go get your So

[01:43:31] - [Speaker 1]
much math in that game. There's so much

[01:43:33] - [Speaker 2]
Go get your watches out.

[01:43:35] - [Speaker 1]
Exploration, math, world progression.

[01:43:38] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah, that is. It's such a gigantic maybe, man. Because yeah, I'm even kind of like looking at my shelf of games over here and I'm seeing like the Castlevania's and stuff.

[01:43:46] - [Speaker 2]
Like they're maybes.

[01:43:47] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah, they feel like RPGs, but they're mostly platformers exploration. Yeah. The action.

[01:43:54] - [Speaker 1]
And it depends on which one you played, you know, like the the DS ones

[01:43:58] - [Speaker 2]
Supergasm video four. Ones. Is not an RPG.

[01:44:01] - [Speaker 1]
No. But the next game that came out, the Game Boy Advance one, the circle of the moon, that's a that's an RPG.

[01:44:07] - [Speaker 2]
That's an

[01:44:08] - [Speaker 1]
RPG. Mean, you let the win them which one you play.

[01:44:11] - [Speaker 0]
New shit. Yeah.

[01:44:13] - [Speaker 2]
Yeah. For sure.

[01:44:14] - [Speaker 1]
So we don't have an answer is the biggest, like, draw

[01:44:16] - [Speaker 0]
from this. It's like, that's

[01:44:17] - [Speaker 2]
the that's the best part about this. We knew that we weren't gonna have an answer. So, like, although we

[01:44:22] - [Speaker 1]
weren't gonna agree.

[01:44:22] - [Speaker 2]
Oh, yeah. We're gonna finally figure it out. Quest sixty four Mike's gonna tell us all what an RPG is, and at the end, you're just like, we don't know what the fuck it means. Okay? We we don't have the answers.

[01:44:32] - [Speaker 2]
Like, God didn't come down and be like, you guys know the answers.

[01:44:36] - [Speaker 1]
This is what we're gonna agree. The world the world is never gonna agree on this, and everybody will have their own list. Yeah. It's great. In fact, it's better.

[01:44:45] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah. To go into it with an open mind, be like, whether it is or is not an RPG by definition, like, yeah. Who cares? Does that make mind,

[01:44:57] - [Speaker 2]
a puffed out chest and

[01:44:58] - [Speaker 0]
a swollen dick. That's best way to go into it. It's exactly like any episode of ghost adventures. They're like, we're gonna find out if there is a ghost here, and and we're we're gonna see for sure our ghost's real. And then they're like, oh.

[01:45:10] - [Speaker 1]
Never. Never a ghost.

[01:45:12] - [Speaker 0]
Zach has a tummy ache. We'll see you next see you on the next episode, and then

[01:45:17] - [Speaker 1]
that's it. Credits. But, like, just one more simple one liner is we don't wanna be those people who, like, say the stupid thing. What's the stupid thing you hear? Every game's an RPG because you play a role.

[01:45:30] - [Speaker 1]
We're not we're not advocating going around and saying that. Like, you're not playing Super Mario World because you play the role of Mario. There's a difference between that and an RPG. It's just how much more do you need to make it an RPG to enjoy it like an RPG.

[01:45:46] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah. Or like the main feel of it, like the mouth the mouth feel of it for lack of a better term. Because

[01:45:53] - [Speaker 1]
like If you can pick up a

[01:45:54] - [Speaker 0]
game term.

[01:45:55] - [Speaker 1]
If you can pick up a game without reading the box, like with no, like no information about ahead of time and it feels like an RPG, that should be enough for you. That should be it. That should be the end of the conversation with yourself. It doesn't matter what the game is. As long as you don't impose like somebody else's opinion about a game on yourself, all it should be about is, does this tick enough boxes for me?

[01:46:18] - [Speaker 1]
Does this have the right feeling for me? Is it an RPG or would I enjoy it? Even if it's not an RPG, like, Bellatro, the card game, or Slay the Spire, the card game. If you've played any of those, they're not RPGs or they are depending on who you are. Yeah.

[01:46:33] - [Speaker 1]
Like, does it have enough RPG elements to you to where where it scratches the itch of playing an RPG? And if it does, that's enough. That's enough for you.

[01:46:41] - [Speaker 2]
At the end of the day, we don't have the answers. But one thing that we do know is that we like RPGs. Like, that's

[01:46:48] - [Speaker 1]
We do. We love them.

[01:46:49] - [Speaker 2]
Because the that's the that's the fucking that's the whole point of this is, like, all three of us love RPGs. Like, we've all grown up on them. And I feel like having discussions like this are super fun because it's like, you you start peeling back layers that you never really thought of before, or maybe it's stuff that you thought about obsessively. And you you were like, I feel like I need to let everybody know that the great tomato adventure is a fucking RPG.

[01:47:21] - [Speaker 1]
Or that you would suggest it to somebody likes or something.

[01:47:24] - [Speaker 0]
Tomato Kingdom. Yep.

[01:47:25] - [Speaker 2]
Yeah. Tomato Kingdom. But yeah.

[01:47:28] - [Speaker 1]
Because RPG players would like tomato kingdom.

[01:47:30] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

[01:47:32] - [Speaker 0]
That was a good one to end it on. Anything else anybody wants to throw out real fast?

[01:47:53] - [Speaker 1]
I don't wanna overstuff the turkey. I feel like really that was a solid ending.

[01:47:57] - [Speaker 2]
That is

[01:47:58] - [Speaker 0]
a good one. I gave you I gave you plenty of time to add whatever you wanted. So, yeah, no no regrets. No regrets.

[01:48:04] - [Speaker 2]
Demons out.

[01:48:07] - [Speaker 0]
Let's keep it. Let's keep it. It. Got

[01:48:10] - [Speaker 2]
those mad diamonds out.

[01:48:12] - [Speaker 1]
I only got through one and three fourth pages of notes, though, so that's a little upsetting.

[01:48:18] - [Speaker 0]
Goddamn it. Part times.

[01:48:21] - [Speaker 2]
There will be a part

[01:48:21] - [Speaker 0]
two. Feel like I feel like as we get close to the end of an episode, Mike, like, hurriedly jots down something, but he's, like, drawing a picture of a kitty. He's like, oh, man. I didn't get all my notes in this episode. I

[01:48:32] - [Speaker 1]
was sitting with my wife outside before this, and I was on, like, the third page, and it was blank. But I'd had, you know, two pay two full pages front to back of notes. And I'm, like, I pulled out my phone, and I was watching the kids play outside. And I'm like, I looked at her. I'm like, I shouldn't even start this page because I'm never gonna get here during this podcast.

[01:48:51] - [Speaker 1]
And she's like she's like, yeah. But she's like, okay. And I'm like, I I don't even have to have this conversation with you because you don't care either. I'm not gonna get I'm not gonna get to notes. I'm not gonna get to these notes.

[01:49:05] - [Speaker 2]
Dude, I have the stupidest conversations with my wife too. Like

[01:49:08] - [Speaker 0]
Me too, dude.

[01:49:09] - [Speaker 2]
Like, I I'll never forget this one time. And my my buddies it's like a it's like an inside running joke with me and my buddies. I remember, like, we unlocked Rosalina and, like, I think it was, like, Mario Kart or something. I remember, like, Karen just, like, came down with the stairs. I like, Karen, we got fucking Rosalina.

[01:49:27] - [Speaker 2]
You see this shit? Rosalina. She was just like, cool.

[01:49:33] - [Speaker 0]
Oh, yeah. Cool. Right on.

[01:49:35] - [Speaker 2]
And I've never felt more like a child. But, like, even recently, like, I'm in the car and I'm, like, explaining to her, like, do you understand the vocal range that this guy has in this band? Like and, like, he's gone through so many different changes in his lineup of his band, and she's just like, I don't I don't fucking care about I there's nothing anything that you're saying right now I

[01:49:55] - [Speaker 0]
care about.

[01:49:56] - [Speaker 1]
Dude. My oldest child imposed a we decided on a 50 word limit to anything that she doesn't care about, and that's how I have 50 words described. Like, something like that, like the vocal range of of Rob Thomas from Xbox 25. Kids, get in here.

[01:50:11] - [Speaker 2]
We're talking about pickleball, and I got 50 words.

[01:50:14] - [Speaker 1]
I've got I've got I'm using all fifth I'm all using all 50. So you're gonna sit here and listen to it. Dude,

[01:50:20] - [Speaker 0]
just just yesterday, we went to a a friend's kid's birthday party, and it's a friend of mine from work. And, like, within maybe a minute or two of me sitting down, we started talking about games. We we were talking Final Fantasy 14 actually and how it came to Xbox Series X and shit. And Cheyenne was just like, oh, a fucking course. They're talking about games.

[01:50:41] - [Speaker 0]
That's all Aaron fucking talks about or whatever. Yeah. But My wife does

[01:50:47] - [Speaker 2]
the same thing.

[01:50:48] - [Speaker 0]
Listeners, video games are fun. Mike, do you wanna plug anything or, like, throw something else out out to listeners before before we let you go?

[01:50:58] - [Speaker 1]
I don't really think I guess I was on a couple other podcasts that maybe deserve some more recognition. Was just on I was just on the Gaming Together podcast, which is actually the first time I've met Bill from the three d o experience because he was also on there with me. So this this whole super pod network that you have created is slowly, like, infiltrating every single thing that I do now. Yep. So and and, of course, the conversation was all about Thraq and how he's becoming, like, my nemesis slowly.

[01:51:31] - [Speaker 1]
I'm like Threk has a

[01:51:33] - [Speaker 0]
lot of nemesis.

[01:51:35] - [Speaker 1]
So Yeah. I I can I can tell because that's all the Nave was like, too, like, oh, I can see that on Threk? He's kind of my nemesis, and I don't even, like, talk to him that much. And then, Nintendo Therapy is another podcast that I'm getting into. They've got quite a few really good episodes, and I'm trying to work out a time to go on there and talk about something.

[01:51:57] - [Speaker 1]
So if you're looking for more podcasts, like those two, really good. I just had in Aaron's Discord, a couple other ones that were suggested to me. We just listened to I just did like a huge thing with Retro Rehab and the what was it? Pixel Pixel

[01:52:13] - [Speaker 0]
Project Radio.

[01:52:15] - [Speaker 1]
Pixel yeah. They did a four part eight hour Final Fantasy six thing, and I've said I wasn't gonna listen to it, I've listened to all of it now. My and it was it was amazing. It was everything like that was suggested to me. So if you saw Pixel Project Radio, Nintendo Therapy, playing together, you know, these these are great podcasts.

[01:52:35] - [Speaker 1]
Just go out and ask people what they listen to. I'm gonna stick my quest foot so far into these things until they're sick of me. And it's gonna end up like this show where I'm where I'm on where I'm on whenever they decide that they need somebody.

[01:52:49] - [Speaker 2]
You're the you're the rotating chair.

[01:52:51] - [Speaker 0]
Yep. Pretty much. Love having you on every single time, though. Yeah, dude. Jerry, folks need more of us or the other stuff that we do, where can they find us on the Internet?

[01:53:02] - [Speaker 2]
You can go to the dark web and type in Christalive in your Tor browser, and you will find the superpodnetwork.com is just hiding just tucked away in a nice little part of the dark web. And it's got all all these great shows, a lot of what what Mike here just mentioned, lots of lots of homies of the show hanging out there. And, yeah, you can get you can get this show. You can get the backlog of all of our all of our good shows there. And lots of blogs and stuff.

[01:53:35] - [Speaker 2]
There's a whole bunch of stuff happening. And you can also, you know, check out all the different I feel like there's a lot of YouTube stuff happening lately too. Like, a lot of Yep. A lot of the shows on the in the SuperPOD Network are starting to get more into YouTube content. And, you know, you and I will obviously be doing some YouTube content for Retro Rehab and maybe even something here with with Mike, with Quest sixty four Mike

[01:54:05] - [Speaker 0]
on the YouTubes. Them get them out

[01:54:08] - [Speaker 2]
in the open on the YouTube. Just pop those tops off and get wild. Terrible idea to do

[01:54:13] - [Speaker 1]
anything with me live. I think we've all figured it out at this point.

[01:54:17] - [Speaker 0]
Yeah. This has been awesome, man. It was fun to do this. We should definitely do a lot more just like discussion ones just to break the mold. Thank you.

[01:54:24] - [Speaker 0]
Thank all of you listeners for listening. Rate the show. Review it. Support the show on Patreon. $24 a month.

[01:54:31] - [Speaker 0]
Check out superpodnetwork.com. Check out check out Mike, Quest sixty four official. Check out check check check him out. Everybody, check. Chickity check.

[01:54:39] - [Speaker 0]
Everybody, say

[01:54:40] - [Speaker 1]
bye. Bye. Thank you for having me, You

[01:54:42] - [Speaker 0]
bet, man.

[01:54:43] - [Speaker 2]
Bye, listeners. We love your face.