This might be one of the most diverse soundtracks in video game history as well. I think that there are others that also do really great jobs, but this one's kind of all over the map in, the best way.
Aaron:I think so too. Like, the first track that comes to mind is the the Lavo steam or the one that's like... Yeah. But that feels very orchestral. Like, they went all out on that one track.
Aaron:Hey, everybody. Thanks for stopping by. It's SuperPod Saga once again. It's a podcast that discusses every single video game topic in existence one episode at a time. And, of course, I am your charismatic, deathly...
Aaron:Death that, in pain... Very in pain host, Aaron. Before we get into it, do do me a solid. Go chat at superpodsaga.com. It's got every episode there, socials, links to all the players, Patreon or Ko Fi, 2 or $4 a month, all that jazz.
Aaron:Enough about me, though. Let's talk about our guest. I'm joined once again from, many episodes. Favorite multiplayer games, characters you have a drink with, games that are worth the wait, abandoned game mechanics that should stay dead, as well as, oh, we did that one for for virtual rehab.
Matt:Oh, yeah. What was that one about? I don't remember.
Aaron:So It's Matt for... It's Matt Storm, by the way, listeners. It's Matt Storm. He's my guest today. Oh, what is that episode?
Aaron:It's gonna drive me nuts. Games games that made us crazy as kids. That's what it was.
Matt:That's right. Yes. Rage games from when we were kids. Yes. Yes.
Matt:Yes.
Aaron:Yes. Yes, Louise. I forgot where my... Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Aaron:But, yeah, our our guest today, Matt Storm. Matt, hello.
Matt:Hi. Thanks for having me. I'm really excited. Surprising no one. I mean, we'll get to the topic in a minute, but if you saw the the...
Matt:What the episode was about, I've basically done a tour of our friends' shows talking about this game. So what's one more stop? But, yeah, I'm excited to be here. I hadn't quite realized how many episodes I had guessed it on until you laid them all out. Also impressive remembering them all because I cannot do that anymore.
Matt:I used to be able to do it with side quests, like, in the first 100 or so. And now that we're almost to 500, it's like, yeah. I I can remember a couple that each person has done, but that's about it.
Aaron:Yeah. I'm lucky. I think we're almost at... I think this this episode might be a 187, 187, I believe. So, yeah, I'm sure as soon as we pass the hump over 200, I'm gonna forget everything immediately.
Aaron:I'm gonna be like, what show is this again? This is mine? Oh, whoops. Well, Matt, for anyone that hasn't heard you before, whether it be on this show, other shows, or of course your own shows, go ahead and introduce yourself. Tell us all about stuff you do on the Internet, and then tell us about your favorite nineties song.
Aaron:Or you can do three or five if you want. I'm cool with that.
Matt:Oh, favorite nineties song. That's a... I mean, you asked a music nerd a favorite question, so you're in trouble. But before we get to that, hi. I'm Matt aka Stormageddon.
Matt:I am a video game podcaster. I used to podcast about many different things, but most of those shows have not survived, so we continue on just talking about video games. I host two shows currently. One is called Fun and Games, which is a broad topic based discussion show not too dissimilar from this show, with the incredible Jen Moonen, and, we cover a wide range of topics, gaming console retrospectives. We do interviews with composers and game developers.
Matt:We cover specific indie games sometimes. A whole run of different things that we cover. And then within that feed, we also do a short form series I alluded to earlier called side quests, where different hosts talks about a game they love and why they love it. Aaron's done several episodes. The one that comes to mind immediately, of course, is Chrono Cross, which is relevant here.
Matt:A great advocation for a game that is fairly maligned within the Chrono series, as short as it is. So go check that out. And then my other podcast is Reignite. It's a play along podcast. We started as a Mass Effect podcast, then finished the trilogy, then played Andromeda, and now we're playing through Dragon Age.
Matt:As of when we're recording, we're on a short hiatus before jumping into Dragon Age Inquisition. So that's really exciting. It's always fun when we jump into a new game because we get to create our main character and the whole spiel of this version of a play along podcast is that Frankie and I create characters based on us and make choices based on us. So like we try and be true to ourselves in the moment. And more importantly, besides making choices as we would, the characters we'd like to smooch that we would in real life So as important stuff there.
Matt:That's what the incredible Frankie Bradley is Strange. You can find both of those at certainpob.com. Yeah. And now I'm here to talk about little a game. Oh, right.
Matt:Favorite nineties song. So, I mean, man, there's so many that I love. I I... The the first one that comes to mind is is song two by Blur just because that's my go to karaoke song. Like, it's short.
Matt:It became my go to karaoke song because I used to get nervous doing karaoke, and so it was like a two minute, ten second song so I could, like, belt it out.
Aaron:And then amped up too. It's pretty energetic song. Yeah.
Matt:But then also, one of my favorite songs is I Wish by Skilo. It's just such a cool r and b hip hop song and has such a goofy music video. Mhmm. So that one comes to mind. And then like grunge, have to do some grunge throwouts.
Matt:So like basically anything by Alison James was like a favorite growing up. I stay away is a big one. I remember loving the claymation music video for that. So those are some those are some nineties songs off the top of the dome.
Aaron:Nice. I love all those picks, especially Alice in Chains. I'm a big grunge freak too, like anything Nirvana. I really like live. No one talks about live, but I really like them.
Matt:I love them too.
Aaron:What's the band called? Candlebox? Yeah. Candlebox. They have a lot of really good songs too.
Aaron:Also, this just popped right back into my head. Listeners, Matt has also done a couple of, blogs with us with the SuperPod Game Club. And then they've also done, other blogs as well too, like Wario Land four. You've done other ones too. This, I forget.
Matt:I'd... I've done a lot. I... Yeah. I've done a lot.
Matt:I do too much. Oh, and it's funny you mentioned Candlebox. I used to do a a music podcast and also an interview podcast. And very early on, Candlebox was putting out a new album in, like, the the mid aughts or twenty tens, and I got to interview the lead singer of Candlebox. Totally random through, like, a music PR firm.
Matt:I don't know if the episode's available anywhere on the Internet anymore. I'll also check YouTube because it's been pulled down most other places. But... Yeah. So, like, that was kind of a fun thing if someone grew up listening to Candlebox.
Matt:I got to interview the lead singer, which was which was neat.
Aaron:Goddamn. That would be so cool. Every time I hear the song... I think it's far away. Yeah.
Aaron:Every time I hear that song, that immediately throws me back into a time machine. I'm in the I'm in the very backseat of my mom's van ripping open Pokemon cards, or I'm shaking my my little Digivice, the little handheld Digivices, like the basic Tamagotchis from back in the day. Would just shake the piss out of it to make a walk and then battle stuff. You know, time that song comes on... Or far behind.
Aaron:Far behind is what it is. Whoops. Far
Matt:Far Behind. Yes.
Aaron:You're correct. Yeah. Also, I don't know how I missed this on the notes, but Matt has also been in two episodes of Chillscape, the the winter getaway, and then most recently, the the very, very, very good summer b g m mix.
Matt:I I didn't realize until now that I had like the direct opposites. I did the winter vibes and then the summer vibes. So we'll have to get me in for like some autumn vibes and another point. I'll just do the four seasons and then come back around.
Aaron:That'd be super cool. Oh, yeah. Yep. That's in the works now. Yeah.
Aaron:That's that's all I had for you. So we'll take a real quick break and we'll be right back with our, game and topic and all that stuff. And then this where the song goes. Alright. So we're jumping right on in.
Aaron:Of course, this week, I don't know if we've brought it up yet, but we're talking about Chrono Trigger, big old bonafide classic SNES RPG released in March ninety five, all that jazz. The game follows Chrono and gang as they they rip through time to defeat Lobos and save the future. Not gonna get too into it because we'll discuss the story later on, and, of course, we'll give you spoiler warnings. Here's here's how the structure of the show is gonna go. Just like my favorite cooking show of all time, Chopped, Matt and I are gonna judge the the game based on three criteria.
Aaron:Presentation, being audio and visuals. Gameplay speaks for itself, and then story also speaks for itself. And then once we get to story, we'll throw up the spoiler warning. And if you want, you can skip right over that. Go right to wrapping it up.
Aaron:And, yeah, we're just gonna talk about things we like, maybe some things that we don't like, which is gonna be hard to do because I don't think there's really anything to dislike about this game. And mostly, it's gonna be a vibes fest. How's that sound?
Matt:Sounds great.
Aaron:Yes. Alright. I think that is it. So let's start with presentation. Get the the big old one out of the way.
Aaron:I, the first thing I wanna bring up is how the the arc... The... I was at Arcura. The Akira Toriyama art style just does not go out of fashion ever. It just does not age.
Aaron:It still looks just as good now as I assume it did back then because I did not grow up this game. I didn't even know this game existed when I was a kid. But, yeah, it it translated so well into this game coming from all of his manga and anime back then. Like, the character portraits looks... Character portraits look really, really good in the menu.
Aaron:There's certain enemies and bosses. You can really... Like, it's really pronounced, like, the final form of Lobos. The the the big... When you're in the...
Aaron:What was it? Death Mountain. There's those big, like... I guess the big monkeys are also in the prehistoric era too, but those guys, you can super duper tell from them. Matt, what do you what do you think about it?
Matt:Yeah. I mean, agree. I came to Chrono Trigger early on in life. I came to Super Nintendo a little late. I got it around the time Donkey Kong Country came out, so towards the, like, back half of its life cycle.
Matt:But I had a friend who I hang out with all the time, shout out to my friend Roy, who loved anime and got me into anime, and it's where I got my start with Dragon Ball z. And I was really into DBZ and was just coming into my own playing games. I had owned a Sega Genesis and a Super Nintendo and a Nintendo and an Atari and, like, liked games, but they were more toys still. Like, I didn't, like, have a deep passion to play every game. And then my buddy Roy was like, hey.
Matt:I know you like Dragon Ball Z. Have you played Chrono Trigger? And I said, what's a Chrono Trigger? And then he proceeded to lend me his copy. I took it home and, like, played it in a weekend, basically, like, nonstop.
Matt:Blew me away. And, like, what attracted me to it and what the early thing that a friend of mine, the reason they suggested it is because we had a mutual love for a curator yama. He... I I would go on to love everything that a curator yama does, especially Dragon Ball z, but, you know, Dragon Quests and so many other things. But, yeah, I agree.
Matt:I think that what's interesting is that this is the first time you could really see the sprite work in his style. Like, the early Dragon Quest stuff, like, was clear in some of the images and the enemy art specifically, but like on the NES games, you couldn't... The sprites didn't really look like his art. Like, kind of had the shape, but like, doesn't really look like it. But, yeah, like in this, every...
Matt:Especially the large sprites, like when you fight the the dinosaur in the prehistoric era, looks very much like his style of dinosaurs, like...
Aaron:Oh, yeah.
Matt:And all the sprites are really expressive, which is I think a good transition into one one of the things I wanted to talk about is like character sprites in this game are unlike anything that come come before between this and Final Fantasy six. Like, they were just able to do so much more with these character designs. And, like, I think of the expressions in this game, like, the the the sprite that always comes to mind is the shocked Chrono sprite with his arms up and his eyes wide, like the anime look. Like, it's just so impressive the kind of emotions they could convey in this game. We'll talk about a little bit in the spoiler section, but there's like a moment in this game that is...
Matt:First of all, I haven't seen any other RPG replicate anything close to it and does something that not a lot of RPGs do. But, like, those moments are sold by how expressive these sprites are and how detailed the worlds are. And, like... So as far as visual identity, like, you can't do any better than this, I think, especially in this era, the 16 bit 16 bit era. Like, it's one of the best looking games on the Super Nintendo, I think, full stop.
Aaron:Oh, god. Yeah. And I agree with that too. Even... I I love that even though this game does use the same style that Kira Toriyama uses for other game...
Aaron:Well, maybe not at the time. I think, like, like, this this game still still looks very, like, unique and has its own, I guess, we'll say its own flavor of a Kira Toriyama, and I think that's really, really cool. And, yeah, the of all these little guys like frog. I love his, like, his winning pose reflexes, and he's like, he he. And then everybody has so many cool little animations they can do, whether it's after a battle or during cut scenes.
Aaron:Like, also, before I started playing this, because I played the SNES version, there were a lot of people that that try to say the DS version is the best because of all the extra stuff in it, like the extra dungeons and the anime cut scenes and stuff. But I feel like the SNES version is still really good. And there ain't nothing wrong with it. I feel like I still followed the story really, really well without those anime cut scenes. But those would have been those would have been sweet, though.
Aaron:I need to need to go catch those on YouTube or something.
Matt:Yeah. I mean, I think that... So I agree that the DS version is the version. It's the version I've played the most. But I think like the second best version is easily the Super Nintendo version.
Matt:It's funny. Like, so I... This is my favorite game of all time. I own every physical version of this game. Thanks to very recently, Dave Jackson, when he was over in Korea, found the Super Famicom version, which was the only version I'm missing.
Matt:But so now I have the Super Famicom and the SNES versions. I have the PlayStation version, which is mostly considered the worst version. So that's where the anime cut scenes and the extra dungeons came in because the load times were so excruciating. It is kind of considered the worst version. But the reason the DS version is the best version is because it took the PS one version and put it on a cartridge.
Matt:So all the loading times disappeared, basically. And so that, by default, made it one of the best. I think the additions to the game are great. I think the the newer dungeons are great. The anime cut scenes are really great.
Matt:Unfortunately, they don't remove those story moments. So like the anime cut scene will happen, and then the in game cut scene, the in game like sprite cutscene will happen. So you get to watch the scene twice because they didn't remove those parts of the game. They just added the cutscenes in the... Which are, of course, animated by the incredible Curatoriuma.
Matt:They all look really great. They are a little awkward though because they usually only feature Chrono and the character in that moment because they can't predict what party members you have. So, like, one of the scenes is when Frog used the sword to find the entrance to Magus' Castle. It's only Frog and Chrono in that scene because they don't know what other party members you have in that moment because you can have a variety of characters. But, yeah, I I think that the Super Nintendo version absolutely holds up.
Matt:I'd say even the Steam version, which doesn't have a physical version, but I own that one too, has been updated and is much better. It was originally the terrible mobile port, but they've since updated it like the Final Fantasy ports and have made them, you know, better, more streamlined, less clunky. But but the Super Nintendo version is the version I played a ton as a kid and, like, absolutely holds up. And I think it's like the truest version of the game. Like, the other versions are good...
Matt:Are great too, but the SNES, like, it was a great game then. It only got better with these other versions.
Aaron:I'm glad to know I didn't miss out on anything because I'm kinda glad I didn't play the DS version then if you have to watch the same scene toy. I mean, whatever. That's that's not too bad. Oh my gosh. One thing that really blows me away about this game is how they they used shading in really, really, really cool ways.
Aaron:Like, I feel like a lot of Super Nintendo games from around this time would use maybe, like, one or two colors for grass or, like, you know, water would just be blue, grass would just be green, castles would just be gray or whatever. But this game uses... It uses, shading to give each color so much depth. Like, they'll... When you're in the dungeons and, you know, the the torches are flickering up against the wall, and you'll see, like, the the immediate vicinity of the flame, of course, is much brighter, but then everything outside of that is darker.
Aaron:And I feel like... No. I I haven't seen that in, like, any Super Nintendo RPG, to be honest. And then even when you're at the at the beginning in the festival, they they use different shades of of gray plus whatever color the banners are of all the different tents and stuff to make them look like they're wavy, but they're actually not. They're just sitting still, but they look wavy, and it's really cool.
Aaron:I I can't imagine how much time went into doing all of that, but I'm really glad they did. It just... Even when you're on, like, the world map, instead of just making it, you know, the flat world, all that stuff, they have, like, they they they change the sky in each era to kind of... What's the word I'm looking for? Add a little more atmosphere to it, I guess.
Aaron:Like, in the modern era, they'll have, you know, clouds going overhead, birds going this way and that. Or when you're in the... Like in the future, it's all dark and foggy and polluted and gross. I'm... They...
Aaron:I don't know how they managed to pack so much detail into these graphics on such a little cartridge, but I'm so glad they did.
Matt:Yeah. It... The world design and the time period consistency both are really cool. Like, getting into the details of spoiling any of it, there are specific missions and quests that you have to do by time traveling to a specific point on the map in the... Like, in the same area and, like, jumping ahead or going back in time.
Matt:Also, like, the slight coloration, like, from the medieval time to modern day, it's, like, more purple y and, like, it... It's it's just it... There's so much character just in the world map design. And then when you go and drill down into the different areas, like, the first area you go to in the future area, like, all of these people are wearing rags and, like, it's really gray and gross and, like, the way they, like, show and describe what it's like to exist in that world. Again, I don't wanna get too much into story details, but they're using the sound design and the, world design to, like, convey the heartbreak of that time period and, like, how tragic it really is.
Matt:Yeah. I think that it has so much character. I mean, I've said in other places, this is the game that taught me that games can be stories. Like, there were stories in older games, games before this. Of course, Sonic the Hedgehog had story.
Matt:Sonic the Hedgehog three and Knuckles, the best Sonic game, actually had a ton of story for a game that had almost no dialogue, or basically no dialogue. But, like, even still, those stories were very vigneti and, like, they didn't have, like, really deep writing or details, whereas this game is full of that. And beyond just the writing and the incredible script and the characters, like, just the world itself conveys so much of it. Like, you know, the... This ultimate being Lavos that is is brought forth to destroy the world.
Matt:You learn more throughout the game, but that's the basic premise. Like the first time you see they show the visualization of him destroying the world, like it's for for such a... An old... Not such an old game, but like for a 16 bit game, it conveys so much without using a word of dialogue in that moment. Right?
Matt:It's all visual and music and like, I just... I really love the details that have... That go into the graphics of this game. I think it it absolutely stands up now. I mean, we have tons of sprite based indie games now that are often inspired by games like Chrono Trigger, but I think Chrono Trigger is still one of the best to do it even all that time ago.
Aaron:My gosh. Yeah. Yeah. It really feels like... You might hear me say this a lot throughout the episode, but it really feels like they thought of everything with this game.
Aaron:Like, they took their sweet time cooking this until it was, like, golden flaky brown on the top, you know, nice and medium rare in the middle. Like, it's ready to go. I love the part in the the prehistoric era, not like right before Lavos descends and then, you know, crashes and everything like that. But before you go to the Tyranno lair, I guess, there's that one area where you can see that little, like, tiny red star in the sky. And at first, was like, dude, what's...
Aaron:That's gotta be something. Is that just like another moon or what is that? And then, of course, later on, it's like, oh, yeah. That's that's him. I don't know if that's a spoiler or not, but I mean...
Aaron:Well, they... Listeners know who Lavos is. Surely, you know who Lavos is. Yes. That's not a spoiler or anything, but...
Aaron:Yeah. That's... That was really, really cool.
Matt:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I... They... There's such an attention to detail that, like, I've played through this game many times.
Matt:This game has also multiple endings, which again, we'll talk a little bit about more about that later. But it was one of the first early games to have so many endings and the fact that little things and little details that you either observe or interact with or choices you make affect those endings is really cool. And, like, you can miss some of these easy details just because you're not paying attention. But the more you tinker in this game, and I think that the way the world and the maps are designed, like, they draw you to these unique places and these unique things that can alter the course of the game. And it's just cool to see so much variety and control in a game that again came out in the 16 bit era over twenty years ago, which is insane.
Matt:Oh, no. I'm sorry. Would that be thirty years ago? I wanna jump in a lake. That's crazy.
Matt:Yeah. So old.
Aaron:It's off topic, but I was watching a video on YouTube that... I forget what video. It was it was a video from Fun House from back in 2016, and I was thinking to myself, wow. That was ten years ago. I don't like thinking about that.
Aaron:Nope. No. Yeah. I... Earlier you mentioned the, the consistency in time periods and all that stuff.
Aaron:I love how you... Like, it isn't just like, oh, you open the world map and you can see that, you know, it's all one continent in the prehistoric era, and then it starts to separate later on. But you can fee... You can, like, you can just kind of see it on the... I mean, I guess there's there's the actual map, but then there's, like, the the world map.
Aaron:I'm I'm trying my hardest to not confuse you listeners. The overworld. We'll say over... There's overworld and then the world map because you do have, like, a world map. Yeah.
Aaron:You can see all the differences in each of the different time periods on the overworld, and then... Yeah. That's... It feels so alive. Like, it really does feel alive, this game.
Aaron:I'd love that.
Matt:Yeah. It's got a... You just got this cool sense of character. Like, the world itself is a character. I think in any good RPG story, any of your favorites you can name off the top of your head, like, the world is as much a character as the characters themselves, and this game really nails that.
Aaron:Yeah. That's... I I love that. I didn't think about it like that, but that is really cool. Like, the world itself as a character.
Aaron:I really, really... I guess how they conveyed the the end of time. I really, really love everything about the end of time as well too, how it's just nothing but somehow, you know, there's, like, the little light post and all the little gates and the the bucket that somehow gets you to Lavos. They never explained that. But, I mean, I don't I don't care.
Aaron:That doesn't really matter. It's just kinda there. But, yeah, it's... That's that's really all I had written down for the visuals. I could just keep going on and on and saying how I love how everything looks because it all...
Aaron:Yeah. It looks really, really good. Did you have anything else regarding the the visuals? Or I guess we can get to the audio.
Matt:That would be my next thing is to talk about the soundtrack. I say... So I cannot say this is the best RPG ever made. There are lot of RPGs. It's very objective.
Matt:It's very hard to, like, lock in on that. Right? But what I can say definitively without any doubt is this is one of, if not the best video game soundtrack ever created, full stop. And that I will fight people on. Like, mechanically, presentation wise, you could, like, nitpick or argue whatever for what's best, but the soundtrack, like, is, like, some of the best music in video games.
Matt:And it made me a huge fan of, Yusi Norumitsuda, who would go on to do many games. And of course, Nobuo Matsu worked on this a bit as well. But Yoshinori Mitsuda, this is, as I recall, one of the first games he ever was like the composer on, and he actually like got very sick during the making of this game because he worked himself so hard because he just... He wanted to do well. And, like, it...
Matt:I mean, it shows. Like, every track in this game is phenomenal. The sound design in this game is phenomenal. Mean, my number one track with the... With, like, no hesitation is the battle with Magus the first time you fight him.
Matt:Like, I won't go into more details about that fight. We'll talk about it in the spoiler section. But, like, Magus is my favorite character in the game. And, like, this this... The reason I love the music in this game, and this is a specific example, is they use all...
Matt:And they talk about this in interviews that you can read. They mixed a lot of genre and gentrification into this game. It's not just like, you know, pixel art, you know, pixel music. It's not just chiptune music. It's like they're leaning into real world genres.
Matt:Like the best example that I've always had is that the Magus track is a Bossa Nova song. Like, the flow of it, it's danceable, like, the beat of it, the rhythm. I'm like, I really never realized that as a kid, but as an adult, comparing it to other music, becoming more of a music nerd myself, like, hearing things like that. And you can hear it in all sorts of places. Like, I think of the drum and bass of the prehistoric music.
Matt:Right? All of it just is really unique, and I think this might be one of the most diverse soundtracks in video game history as well. I think that there are others that also do really great jobs, but this one's kind of all over the map in, the best way.
Aaron:I think so too. Like, the first track that comes to mind is the the Lavo steam. I think that's what I'm thinking of. The one that's like, yeah. But that feels very orchestral.
Aaron:Like, they went all out on that one track. They were, like, make it feel as doomy as humanly possible, and they did. And they they made it sound really, really close to actual instruments. Like, the the sounds very, very similar to the real life organ, and then you've got lots of bass, and they're like,. Probably not doing it any good by, constantly mimicking the song, but I really love the forest tune, like the forest before the, guardian castle.
Aaron:That's a really, really good song. And the battle theme, also, I think they they nailed that shit. The way they... This got that, like, I guess, that, like, rhythm to it. It, I don't know how to explain it very well, but it's got that that, like,.
Aaron:That was awful, but, yeah, it's got such a rhythm to it that it feels like it was made for combat, like for a battle theme. Again, they thought of of everything. I don't know how they did it.
Matt:Yeah. I mean, they were also inspired by pop. I mean, it's no secret now that like it's been played out everywhere, but like Robo's theme was in... It would... It either inspired by or very coincidentally similar to Never Gonna Give You Up by Rick Astley.
Matt:Right? It's got the same rhythm line. And like, well, I don't know if that song is a direct inspiration. I don't know that I've seen that anywhere.
Aaron:It is now?
Matt:It it it... Right. But it's clear that there's a direct line to pop music of the time that inspired them as well because there are tons of poppy sounding songs as well. While they have the atmosphere kind of synthy, you know, orchestral stuff like the forest theme like you were talking about before. There's so many other songs.
Matt:Like, I think of the heroic, like, main theme of the game. Mhmm. Like, every time you get in the time machine, it... It's just so sweeping and so complex. And, like, there are intricacies to this soundtrack that I just don't think other soundtracks come close.
Matt:There are plenty of incredible RPG soundtracks as well as just games in general, but I think there's something unique about the intricacies and the complexities of this soundtrack specifically that make it stand out above a lot of others. I mean, a lot of the tracks you mentioned and so many more are like... So I compare it to Star Wars in the sense that, like, for me, Star Wars as a movie is only made stronger by its soundtrack and would not be as memorable of a movie if you didn't have the Imperial March, if you didn't have, you know, the the the theme on Tatooine or Luke's theme. Right? Like, those songs by John Williams sell the story as much as the dialogue does.
Matt:And I think the same is for Chrono Trigger. Right? The writing is incredible in this game. It's a great story. But what really sells the impact like that Lavocino was talking about earlier is the music.
Matt:Like, you feel the heroics. You feel the mystery. You feel the intrigue. You feel the fear in the music that was composed for this game, and it is as much integral to the storytelling as I think anything else.
Aaron:Oh. Now that you bring all that up too, and one part that really, really stood out to me was when you get to Magus' Castle for the first time and there's no music at all. First of all, that shot of, like... So you're approaching the castle, you see the moon, and then it pans down, like, all along the castle. And it's like, holy fuck.
Aaron:This thing is huge. The angle that they that they use when they pan down made it seem gigantic. And then you go in, no music. When you're in battle, there's no combat music either. Every time you select an option in combat, the little, like, I guess, the confirmation sound effect, the that'll that'll have, like, a very slight echo, and that was such a cool design.
Aaron:Like, it just feels like, okay. We're in for some real serious shit. Like, one slip up, and we're done for it. They made... They, like...
Aaron:It it, I guess, it it raised the stakes. It felt high stakes. So you're racing through there, getting to Magus, and then, yeah, you do get to Magus. His back is turned. He's like, I forget exactly what he says, but he whips around, and, you know, his cape whips around too and takes out that scythe and then that theme starts playing.
Aaron:It's like, okay. Ship. Yep. Let's go. Even even without music, the game, it creates so much tension and it it just...
Aaron:It even... Without music, it makes you feel things. I don't know if that makes any sense.
Matt:It does. I think the sense that I'm getting is like silence can be as effective as music. Think of like the classic Metroid games and stuff. Like, Metroid games have tons of music, but also whenever the music cuts out in a Metroid game, you're like, oh shit. Something's about to go down.
Matt:Like this is bad. And like that's what that moment in Magus Castle is. It's like you've had all of these different themes and songs and like backing tracks and then suddenly, you're at this castle. It feels like a culmination of something and there's no music. It's just silence.
Matt:It sells a little bit of the horror of that moment because there are some creepy moments in this game too and I think the lack of sound or the style of music that's chosen sells that as well. And I think, again, it it adds to that emotionality of the moment whether either void of music or how it uses music and when it uses it.
Aaron:Yeah. Once again, they thought of goddamn everything. Like, every little gripe that anyone's ever had about a 16 bit r... JRPG up until this point, or I guess like a JRPG from this era up until this game, it feels like they they crushed it with with Chrono Trigger. Like, no random encounters.
Aaron:That's really cool. You can buy and equip new gear right from the store. That's really cool. You don't have to go back and forth, go into the menu, equip shit, go back to the store, sell shit, go through the shopkeeper dialogue and all that stuff. That is annoying as hell.
Aaron:And even, like, if you're confused about where to go next, if you're not paying attention to the story or whatever, you can just go to the end of time, talk to Gaspar, and, like, he won't outright tell you where to go. He'll just be like, hey, dog. Go there, and then you go there. Or you... He'll point you in the direction basically of where you need to go and, you know, you'll figure it out.
Aaron:But, yeah, like, I can't think of a single thing that I disliked about this game or, like, a single thing that annoyed me. What do you think?
Matt:Yeah. I mean, no. You made some great points. The quality of life improvements in this game, like, are legendary. And, like...
Matt:And also would then go on to set the standard for games going forward. Like, the new game plus system, the fact that you can start the game with all of your gear and all of your abilities from scratch and all of your levels, that that I don't think existed before this game and now has become a standard in most RPGs, like a new game plus kind of mode. But also, like, what you were talking about, like, the the no random encounters, like, the fact that you can... There is a a battle I skip in the first forest when you first go back in the past. Every time there's a couple of goblins kicking down...
Matt:Kicking around a roly poly. And if you walk along the edge, you can completely skip the fight and, like, not fight them. And, like, the first time
Aaron:I ever pulled that off as
Matt:a kid, was like, wait. I I don't have to fight them? I can do that? And, like, I would say probably 70% of the fights you can't skip. You'll know they're coming though because you can see them.
Matt:You can't skip. But there is like a 30 to 20% of the game that, like, you can, like, kind of weasel your way around certain combat or certain enemies depending on the layout of the map. And I think, like, that just didn't... Like, I'd never experienced that before. And so that was really great.
Matt:And, like, you know, as far as pointing you in the right direction, like, you don't have a quest list. There are certain things there. This game does have side quests and off the beaten path stuff, but, like, you kind of just find them by talking to people. And Yeah. You know, it's it's hard for me to talk about how obtuse or not this game is or how difficult or not this game is because I've played it.
Matt:I don't think I'm underselling it 50 times or more. Like, that I think is actually a lowball because back when the DS version of the game came out, I used to play it every year for many years. I think only in the last ten years have I stopped playing it every year because I just haven't had time. And it has been a few years since I've done a full playthrough. But, like, so to speak to, like, the the difficulty of this game or the obtuseness of it, I can't really.
Matt:But what I can speak to is the intricacies of the systems in it. Like, I I love the turn based combat in this. I love the... Whether you can do active or wait, you can choose which way you want it to be, which I think is a great feature. And then, like, the way attacks and techs in this game work and the fact that you can team up with your party members and do double techs or, you know, rare earth triple check techs where all three party members attack together.
Matt:You get certain items that unlock those moves for certain characters. Like, the other games have done stuff like this, but, like, I don't think any other game has done this exactly. Like, for the most part, this is something unique to Chrono Trigger and to be able to, like, team up with your buddies this way. There are other games that have co op and tag team moves that show up in different ways, but I can't think of a turn based game where you select things like this and do these team up attacks. And I just think it's so brilliantly done, I'm sure people in the comments will be like, well, there's this game and that game, and that's fine.
Matt:But I think this was definitely one of the first to do something like that where it would let you team up your party members and also give you a reason to use all of your party members.
Aaron:Yeah. Yeah. And to play into that too, I couldn't think of a single reason to not use any of the party members because each of them adds something so unique to the party. Like, frog is is very well rounded. You know, he's got heals.
Aaron:He's got decent magic. He does pretty good offensive damage, high crit rate if he's got the hero badge. Like, I didn't use him for a while, but then toward the end, I was like, oh, shit. Maybe I should cycle him in for these cool dual techs. And then, yeah, there are no stinkers in this game.
Aaron:Every party member is so helpful in their own ways, whether it's just on their own or in a dual tech or even, like like you said, in the rare triple tech. Like, I I kept shuffling my party around all the damn time. Like, I I used Chrono and Ayla and Marla for the longest time. Also, is that how you pronounce Marla or is it Marley or...
Matt:Marle. I've heard all of them. The problem is there's no voice acting in this game, so you'll never know. Yeah. I've...
Matt:I I always said Marle, but I have no idea because again, I've not said these names out loud. But, yeah, I mean, I agree with you. I think that, like, there... There's a stinker in every RPG party. Right?
Matt:And sometimes it's personal taste. Right? Like, I love Yeah. Vincent in Final Fantasy seven. But as a character, he's not great.
Matt:He's interesting, but I think he's a little wonky, especially for the original seven. But I loved using him because I liked the character a lot. But in this, I think tactically, all the characters are really great. And, like, I think it's also tied to how in this game narratively, your your your party gets magic later on. And each character, each living being has a unique kind of magic except for a couple, but then their abilities, you know, mimic certain kinds of magic.
Matt:And so they still technically have those elements. And like, it's just... It's really a unique way to diversify the spells. Like, the fact that Chrono is lightning, you know, Marla is ice, frog is water, Luca's fire, Magus is dark energy. Right?
Matt:Like, the fact that you have all these characters and then Robo and Isla, like, Isla is basically too dumb to use magic is the is the narrative hook. Although she's smarter than she lets on, and then Robo, because he's not human, can't use magic but can mimic it, like... And so mimics some electricity abilities. Like, I love that diversity of the magic ability Yeah. Because, you know, a lot of...
Matt:It's not uncommon for games to do something similar like that, but like Final Fantasy before that, it's like this one class has all of this magic. Right? And then this one class has all the summons, and then this one class has all the healing. And they didn't do that. Right?
Matt:Like, the water magics both had healing, but then they're... Like, Robo could also do a heal because he was a robot, he could learn how to do a different kind of heal. Like... And so I like that the way that abilities are spread out across all the characters by divvying up all the elements. And then those elements would play into the double and triple text too, which is really cool.
Matt:And like, I just... I've never seen another game do it quite like this as far as how they divvied up the magic. You can sort of mimic it in games like seven or or nine where you can kind of control what everybody has, but even then, not so much.
Aaron:I think it's also really cool how certain... Like, not each ability, but like some abilities have different, I guess, hit patterns or Mhmm. Don't know if that's the best word for it, but like, say with Luca, for instance, like, she starts off with a flamethrower, flamethrower, flamethrower, and that'll hit, like, a like, just like a line of enemies. But then later on, you'll get fire, and it'll hit everybody or, you one person, then you get napalm and it'll hit a whole bunch of enemies. So, like, you don't have to abandon the flame toss.
Aaron:You can still come back to that if there's a, like, a line of enemies. Toss it out. You got them. Even with with Chrono, he's got, you know, the cyclone. He's got the...
Aaron:Was it single targets, The stab move? I forgot what the heck that was called. And then he gets his his lightning that hits everything on screen. Like, there's always a use for everything, I feel like. Even with the with the Isla...
Aaron:I I called her Ayla, but Isla sounds way better. I'm gonna use that now, Isla. She's got, what, the cat claws. She's got her, like, thunder bite or whatever. Yeah.
Aaron:Just on dinos. You know, she's got the dino tail. Oh my god. I spammed that all the time during the final battle, that dino tail. Even...
Aaron:Like, it's supposed to do more damage the less health you have, but I would use it at, half health and it would still annihilate the little little little circle guys that were next to the boss. But it's really, really cool that you can feel each character working together and learning from each other. Like, when a character learns a new tech and you go into another battle with those... With your same characters or whatever, and it's almost... Like, at the end of the battle, like...
Aaron:Or at the beginning of... It's either at the beginning or the end of the battle, it'll be like, boink, learned a new dual tech. Yeah. And it's kind of almost like they're having a little, like, moment. Like, they they see frog doing slurp or whatever, and then Chrono's like, oh, shit.
Aaron:I could do a slash with them. And then they're just like, dude, let's try it. And then... Yeah. That that feels so organic and and just so so right.
Aaron:I don't know if that's the best word for it. But...
Matt:Yeah. I agree. And, like, I think also what's really cool is we didn't talk about this in presentation that much, but it's more appropriate here. Like, the look of these spells also look awesome even for a 16 bit game. Like, I think of Lumiere, which is, Chrono's final spell, where it's basically this orb that, like, explodes open and, like, the lighting effects and all of it.
Matt:Like, it's just like it lives rent free in my brain. There's a triple tech called Dark Matter later on in the game that is one of my favorites. It's just like these trippy polygonal graphics, like, you think of, like, old, PC games when they did spells. They would have, triangles and squares and, like, fading in and out and folding on each other. And it's like, if you broke them down, they'd probably be very simplistic at their base components, but the way they compose them together with the lighting and everything else really adds a flare to these spells that make them look awesome.
Matt:I mean, my favorite thing about Robo, who's one of my favorite characters, is like every time he would do a spell, his chest cavity would open because that was like... He was part of like his range of emotions and his sprite. It was so cool to see that happen. Like, he would put his arms up, the chest would open, and then a spell would happen, whatever it is. Right?
Matt:Like, I just... I love those little details. And so I think graphically, all of the combat looked... Always looked really cool. Also, like you were saying, like, the enemies run to each other.
Matt:Right? Like, it's not static. It's that you're not standing in a line like Final Fantasy. Chrono to attack someone would run up to them, swipe with his sword, and maybe miss. Right?
Matt:And then jump back. And it's just... It's so cool to see that also because growing up playing games like the original Final Fantasies, like all... Like, they would step forward, swing their arm, damage would happen, which is still cool. Don't get me wrong.
Matt:But like, it was very static. Whereas Chrono Trigger was one of the earliest games to have this movement and momentum in the turn based fights too, which looked really cool.
Aaron:Oh, yeah. Yeah. Speaking of the the the tech visuals, going back to the Dino Tale, I love how it used the mode seven to, like, squash and pull it and, like, wiggle it around. That was really, really cool. Also, one of my favorite techs ever is the one with...
Aaron:Oh, I might I might have said Ayla. Whatever. One of my favorite dual techs ever is Chrono and Isla when they do falcon... Is it falcon dive or falcon... I'm pretty sure it's falcon dive, but it hits every enemy in the line, and that shit looks so cool.
Aaron:Like, Isla will just toss Chrono in the air, and then you see him shoop, and there's that red line following him. I love the way that looks. It's it's so cool. Or any any dark spell with with Magus, who, by the way, rules, I can see why he's your your favorite. He kicks so much ass.
Aaron:Like, in the... My final lineup when I beat the game was... It was frog and magus and and robo. Then robo and frog were pretty much there for a little bit of damage here and there, but mostly to keep the party healed because they have that... I forget the name of it, but they had, like, a party wide heal.
Aaron:And then Magus would just constantly whip out spells. You know, he's got the the gold earring on. Also, that's another cool thing that this game does. It... I mean, other RPGs have accessories or trinkets or whatever you wanna call them, but this game has so many different accessories that don't just feel...
Aaron:I feel like most games with accessories, it'll be like plus two magic, plus two strength, just real basic stuff. But some of these are like... Earlier, I mentioned frog's hero medal, which gives him... I think it's like just extra crit rate if he has mass immune equipped, which, I mean, you're gonna, so you might as well. Or, with, with Isla, there is...
Aaron:I forget the name of so many of these items, but there's one that just gives you more... Just more more, like, raw power. Just more raw power when you do your techs. There's one I always had on Magus that... And he reduced his MPUs by 75%, like the gold stun or something like that.
Aaron:Yeah. So he would just be whipping out spells constantly, doing all that, like, raw area damage. And, again, like, there's just... There are no stinkers. You can build these characters.
Aaron:You can build these characters, build your party defend your exact play style, whatever you need. You know, if you're missing a little bit of heals, alright, cycle in Marla or cycle in frog or whoever. There's just... There's no... It feels like there's no wrong way to play the game, and that shit is so cool because...
Aaron:Fuck. Like, as much as I love Final Fantasy nine, I never use Freya. She just... She has, like, two good abilities, but she's just not that great compared to like VV and a lot of the other characters. But yeah, Chrono Trigger is not a bad one in the bunch.
Aaron:They're all good.
Matt:Yeah. And like to go back to like the different techs you're talking about and how they unlock, like I feel like my favorite tech of all of them, because for a lot of the game, I'm using Chrono, Robo, and Frog. And so Yeah. The Triple Tech where they, you know, it's the cross slash plus the robot... Robo tackle, like, that's the thing I love about these techs, you were hint...
Matt:You were, you know, talking about this earlier is, like, they learn them as they fight, but then, like, as they learn new abilities, they learn new triple techs as well. And you can see, like, the the building blocks of them, like the triple tech, which is just the cross slash plus robo tackle, but it looks cool to see them together. Right? Like, it's just... It's one of those those things that really kind of make this game sing.
Matt:I also like how mechanically there's stuff in the game that, like, you might not think of. Like, there are time locked chests in this game that like, if you get them in the future, they're gone in the past. No. What is it? If you get them in the past, they're gone in the future.
Matt:But if you get them in the future and then go back to the past, they still exist in the past, you can loot them twice. Which is like really cool. Little timey wimey things like that that use the time travel. There are certain items that like, you know, have to mature over time as part of the narrative. So you just do time travel.
Matt:Right? And like there are narrative things with this too. There's a moment we'll talk about in the spoiler section. That's one of my favorites because it uses time travel as a mechanic in a really unique way. And, like, I just love that too.
Matt:That that's really embedded in, like, not necessarily the battles, but in the broader gameplay of the game and, like, the discovery of the game.
Aaron:Oh, yeah. They really reward you for going out of your way and then exploring quite a bit. Like, there's one secret little room in Magus' castle. When you come back later on, you can get his best gear like the... It's like the Doom Cloak or Gloom Cloak or one of those two.
Aaron:Totally, like, totally hidden. Like, I would never have known that was there if I wasn't... If I didn't just happen to look at a guide at that certain moment in time, which I didn't really ever have to use for this game. Like, maybe maybe, like, one time I had to use the guide to figure out how to beat a beat a certain boss, but nope. Circling back to the cool animations of characters, that reminds me of how Robo, when you do his punch, he does, the gorilla chest beat, and he whips his arm.
Aaron:And his arm has that cool little tether thing attached to it, and he whips it back. Then same with a frog's tongue whip or or not tongue, slurp or whatever it's called. It it it looks like it was... Or it looks like it is his tongue. Know?
Aaron:It's got the little... It's made out of circles and all that, but it looks really cool the way they... It just kinda plops out and heals somebody and then comes right back. I also loved how, like, toward the end of the game, they have those optional quests for each character, which... I mean, I won't talk about the story bits, but they...
Aaron:Like, they're 100% optional. But if you do go and do them, you get some really cool shit out of it. Like, you get permanent stat boosts. You get new abilities. I think doing, I think it was like doing frogs gets you the the the better hero medal or something, I believe.
Aaron:I forgot what it was. Yeah. 100% optional, but you get really, really cool stuff from doing it. So it's like, why wouldn't I just go do it? It's it's short, so might as well.
Matt:Yeah. I... You know, it's really common now in games to have, like, loyalty missions or, like, missions where you, like, rally your crew or do a specific mission for them. I think of, like, the Mass Effect games. Right?
Matt:Like, every crew member has, like, a mission later in the game where you do it and, like, you find out that more of their backstory, you help them with something, and it makes them a better better character, you know, mechanically as well. But this game was doing it way back in the SNES, and like, yeah, you're right. All of those missions are completely optional. But now having played them, like me, you probably would go, but they're not. Because like narratively, and we'll talk about it later
Aaron:Yeah.
Matt:It's some of the best storytelling. Like, without spoiling what it is, like, I love Robo's, like, bonus mission. Like, the narrative there, the storytelling there is so good. And like, there's so many others, but like, it's just they make these characters feel really fleshed out and and detailed through those moments. And mechanically, it's fun to like go back to places you've already been and see, well, is there something else there?
Matt:Right? Is there more to discover? Because there are many times where you get these missions by going back to dungeons you've already done. And there's new story moments in those dungeons, which are really cool.
Aaron:Yep. Yep. Yep. Throwing the spoiler warning, everybody. If you don't wanna have Chrono Trigger spoiled for you...
Aaron:I mean, we're not gonna... Again, we're not gonna do, like, a beat by beat story breakdown. We're just talking about all the things that we thought were cool, which will include spoilers. So if you haven't played the game yet, haven't beaten it, but you want to, please skip this unless you're cool with the spoilers. That's your last warning.
Aaron:Okay. We... Right before this, we talked about those those optional story missions. Yeah. Those are...
Aaron:I I like that they reward you not only with the cool gear, stat upgrades, but you get a lot of a lot of really cool bits and pieces of each character's backstory that you otherwise would not have gotten had you skipped that. Like with Luca's, you can save her mom, like keep her from from dying or whatever, or was it she gets crippled or she or she dies?
Matt:She gets seriously injured and becomes wheelchair bound. Yeah.
Aaron:Okay. Yeah. I like that you have the chance to go back in time and stop that from happening. And then, of course, you learn a little bit more about Luca in doing so. I think probably my favorite of the whole bunch is...
Aaron:I mean, it's gotta be Frog. I I like him with... I always get him. How was it? Frog's name is Glen.
Aaron:Right? Or is Glen the other No.
Matt:Frog's name is Glen. The other guy is Cyrus.
Aaron:Okay. I always get their names mixed up for whatever reason. They're real names, I should say. But, yeah, going back to that castle, fighting... For I forget his name, fighting Cyrus's ghost and all that stuff, and then you learn about how...
Aaron:Yeah. Goddamn. Which one was your favorite out of all those little side missions?
Matt:A few things before I get to mine. Fun fact, my username for many years was Cyrus six six six with a extra s because I wanted to distinguish myself from this game most of my friends hadn't played. But Cyrus is one of my favorite... Was one of my favorite characters, and also it's one of my favorite moments because when you find that haunted armor, it comes up out of nowhere and it looks like puffy and weird and like it just growls at you the first time you talk to it. It's just such a creepy moment in an otherwise not very scary RPG, and I really love it when you go into that mausoleum and you see him clearly, you know, be cut at with, you know, unrest because of not being able...
Matt:Like, not his true story not being told or whatever, like, not acknowledging what happened to him. But I think my favorite is Robo's because, like, it's just, like, to see... Like, to discover where he came from and then realize that he's unique. And, like, that moment at the end of that story arc where, like, they're just beating on him. Like, they're just gonna dismantle him and destroy him, and you have to rescue him.
Matt:And then Luca, like, you know, fixes him up. Like, it's just such a heartbreaking and interesting moment because it show... It teach... You're learning... Like, Robo's learning, like, finding out where you're from isn't all that's cracked up to be.
Matt:Like, sometimes it doesn't matter where you're from or you're you in spite of where you're from. And I really love that as well is what makes it one of my favorites. Like... And it's just this cool, like, thing to, like, discover and and dive deeper. I mean, I think all of their story moments are really great, but like getting that depth with those characters, I think is really wonderful.
Matt:And the fact that you get those moments with those characters and really, you know, it it leads me to also some stuff that's unique about this game that you don't experience in other games. Like for one, Magus is a villain that can join you, but you have to make a choice. When you confront him the second time, you either fight him and kill him permanently, or you... He joined your party. And the fact that you can make that mistake, you can make like, it it asks if you wanna fight him and why would you say no?
Matt:He's a bad guy. Right? And like, it just changes the course of a lot of the game if you do do that, which I think is phenomenal. Or the fact that Chrono can die. Right?
Matt:This is the one of the only RPGs I've played where you can swap out your protagonist after he dies, and you can have a party without him. Because technically, you don't have to save him. You can finish the game without him. But like a real hero sacrifice moment. Yeah.
Matt:If you don't if you don't get the doll and save him, you can finish the game without him. And, like, this... The ending's just... It's different. And that's wild to me.
Matt:Yeah. I remember when that... When he sacrificed himself in that moment. Like, I wept as a kid. And then, like, the reunion where depending on who you've done more stuff with or whatever or spent more party time with will hug you in that that moment of that tree when you recover him.
Matt:But, like, you know, getting the Chrono Trigger, which is like the whole part of the game. Right? It's it's key to the narrative, but like all of that stuff is... I can't think of many other games where the main character dies, and I'm not gonna say them now anyway because I don't wanna spoil another game in this spoiler section. But like, it's such a rare thing and they do it.
Matt:It's not gimmicky. Like, they do it so well. You really think he's gone for a good portion of the game and it's not until later you can figure out how to bring him back. Right? I just...
Matt:I love the... That that goes in... It flies in the face of, like, common RPG tropes, which I really love.
Aaron:Yep. Yep. Yep. Speaking about Chrono two, I really wish that... I guess this is my one gripe with the game, but it's very, very minor.
Aaron:I wish that they had done more with Chrono as a character, but I understand he's supposed to be the silent protagonist. He's supposed to be you, the... As the player pretty much, but
Matt:Yeah.
Aaron:I really wish they had done more with him. Everybody else is so fleshed out and so detailed and and so fun to learn about and listen to and everything. But then you get Chrono, and it's just like... He's just a sword guy, and that's it. That's that's pretty much my only gripe with the game.
Aaron:Going back to Magus, though, oh my gosh. I I love how they... Well, you you learn about his past, you know, how he was basically the prince of... Oh my gosh. What's the kingdom of zeal?
Aaron:Yeah. Mhmm. Yeah. He was the prince of all that. And they kind of, like, sprinkle little hints about him and, like, what he's about in the story.
Aaron:Even even before you get to the part where you can fight him and permanently kill him, if you're paying attention, you'll know that maybe you shouldn't kill him because he's he is an enemy, but he's got the same goal. Like, he wants to also destroy Lavos. Yeah. But, yeah, I guess if you aren't paying attention, totally fight him, kill him, or whatever. But, yeah, I I I really cannot think of any other game that does that kind of thing.
Aaron:I love the idea of the villain kinda turn antihero and just fighting you... With you Yeah. Just for the sake of destroying this evil piece of shit, Lavos. That is such such a cool thing to have in there. And...
Matt:Yeah. Well, and I love that you bring up the MAGA stuff also because, like, the fact that he ends up being the prophet, like, so he can hide in the past. The fact that when you confront you... Like, you go into the future, you find out that Lavos was summoned in the past. You then go back to medieval times because you think that Magus summoned Lavos, and he is.
Matt:But you find out he's summoning Lavos to try and kill him because of lot... What Lavos did in a different time and how it affected his sister and all of that. Like, I love how timey wimey the story is while still staying fairly consistent and readable and understandable. It's so cool and that, like, I also love in this game that every time you fight Lavos, you can kill him. And, like, to the bucket thing, like, you can get the...
Matt:One of the coolest and weirdest endings in the game if you beat it in, like, under an hour or whatever. You... By going straight to the... You can go to a Lavos fight in new game plus at the teleport machine. And if you do that and do that fight, you get this ending that's just, like, all of the staff members in sprite form, and you can, like, talk to them and interact with them.
Matt:It's so goofy. Like, the fact that they're... That they designed this game. So no matter when you encounter Lavos, if you kill him, you get an ending. And what's the right ending?
Matt:There isn't really one, but, like, you're designed to go through the whole rigmarole of the game and fight him at the very end with everybody and all of the upgrades and everything. The fact that anytime you encounter him, if you're strong enough and kill him, you get an ending is also really awesome design.
Aaron:I like how the game feels like miniature arcs to each part of the game. Like the first part, you've traveled back in time by accident, and then you find out, oh, this this dickhead, Lavos, is gonna come along and destroy everything. Alright. We gotta stop him. So let's let's go to the past.
Aaron:And then it turns out Magus is the one that summons him, and it's like, okay. Well, we should probably ice that guy and stop him from summoning Lavos, but then ends up... Well, I guess he doesn't do it, but you guys end up flying back in time again. And it's like, okay. Well, maybe we should stop Lavos before he, you know, before he destroys Earth or whatever the heck.
Aaron:Yeah. It feels like it feels like an arc from your favorite anime, but, you know, miniaturized in this game. That is so cool. I mean, yeah, other RPGs up until this point, their their stories are... I wouldn't say, like, linear because this game feels like there's so many little branching bits and paths to the story that's...
Aaron:I mean, there... It... It's it's all over the place. There's so many little bits you can explore here and there. You can learn about the paths of each region and kinda piece together, I guess, little bits and pieces about the story.
Aaron:Get some hints pretty early on in the game as well too.
Matt:Yeah. No. I mean, you're right. I think those arcs are really important, and some of the smallest but most impactful moments are a result of that. Like, I think of...
Matt:I was alluding to this in the non spoiler section, but one of my favorite moments in the game is where you find... I think it's Fiona in the cottage near the sinkhole in the desert. And when you talk to her, it's like she's been trying to resuscitate the forest, but the sinkhole and the monster in it keeps her from being able to do it. So you go into the sinkhole, you fight the monster, and you kill it. And then when you come back out and, like, the sinkhole is stopped, she says, well, I would still love to fix it, but I can't do this by myself.
Matt:And then Robo volunteers to stay behind and help her rebuild the slush forest. And, like, you fight with him on it, he's like, no. Like, look, I'm not human. I don't need to eat, sleep, or drink. I can help make this happen.
Matt:And then just jump ahead in the future. It's gonna be a nanosecond for you, and I'll see you then. What's cool is if you don't jump all the way into the the the present, if you go, I think, to just us with the one time jump instead of the full time jump, you see Robo... Oh, no. It's before you leave.
Matt:You see Robo in, like, tractor mode, like Yeah. Tilling the forest, which is really awesome. Then when you jump into the future and you find him, he's on a pedestal covered in vines and Luca reactivates him. And then you get this great campfire cut scene where she's tinkering with him and fixing him while the party talks about what's been happening. And it's just...
Matt:It's such a beautiful moment that you can't really miss, but like just feels core to the characters and like Yeah. You know, who they are. And I love those little moments and the fact that you can just jump into the future, but the... Using time travel as a mechanic to recover Robo. And you don't have to do that.
Matt:You could go off and do some other mission and just leave Robo and come back for him later. Like, you don't have to do that next part right away. There's a little bit of a branching path as you mentioned. And I love that. I love those little details in the story.
Matt:Or like when you go to certain areas in different time periods, there are little differences that you can find different things or find different items. Or like I said, get those chests in a different order. It's just really, really kind of a cool way that they set that up.
Aaron:That is cool. I especially really liked when you learn about the the... Well, the the sages. Right? There's a sage of time, sage of...
Aaron:I forgot what the other two are, but you come to find out that they are people that you know very well. I guess you know them very well by accident or, like, just through this chain of events that set the game into motion. Like, what is it? Gaspar is the Sage of Time. Forgot.
Aaron:I forgot what their titles were, but the the guy that repairs Massimmune is the Sage of...
Matt:So I'm I'm pulling them up. So there's three of them. The Sages of Time are Malkior, Balthazar, and Gaspar. Gaspar, I believe, invented the time machine. Balthazar is a famous, like, craftsman who makes armor for you based on the rainbow shell and other things.
Matt:And then Malkior, can't remember what Malkior is known for. He's the guru of life is Malkior. And you're initially approached by him. He's, he's disguised as a merchant in... Weapons merchant in Lanay Square.
Matt:And so, like, you see these characters in different moments in time. Gasper is stuck at the end of time. Balthazar is in... You see him in the medieval time period briefly. Yeah.
Matt:It's it's really cool how these characters kind of show up throughout time, and then you find out much later that the theory gurus are actually, like, really key to the narrative of the game.
Aaron:Yeah. Yeah. Like, you you wouldn't be able to get to Magus without... I already forget who it was that... Was it Balthazar?
Aaron:That's the the blacksmith guy who repairs Mass Immune and gives you the... Okay. You wouldn't be able to get that without him, and then you wouldn't be able to really do anything without without Gaspar and the the Wings of Time or Epoch or whatever anybody else named it. And toward the end, they allude to... I forget it was, like, if it was the entity or the one or Yeah.
Aaron:Whoever they they refer to as, like, the the big one that set all of this in motion for them to go and defeat Lavos. But, like, at at first, the the whole story feels like it was started by accident kind of, or, like, they took it upon themselves to defeat Lavos when they didn't have to. But then
Matt:Right.
Aaron:Come to find out, it's like, that's their destiny. Like, they have to do that. And yeah.
Matt:Yeah. I should... Like, so I love that the entity is basically the player. Right? The entity is satisfied.
Matt:The entity is at rest. But also, should clarify. So is the blacksmith who makes the different weapons for you. Is the is the original inventor of the time machine who you encounter his robotic new that he programmed with his memories in the future. And then the...
Matt:Gaspar, the third one, is the one who provides you with... He's the guru of time and provides you with the time egg in order to save Chrono. And so... Yeah. Like...
Matt:But to that end and what you're talking about, I think it's so cool that, like, it's almost a a coincidence that, through Luca's invention and and Marley's wrong place, right time, and the necklace and everything, like, it just kind of seems like it was an accident. This all was set in motion, but from going back in the time... Back in time and ending ending up replacing her great grandmother or whoever it was her great great grandmother who never gets rescued because they find her and think she's the queen. And then, yeah, she disappears from time and you have to go find the real queen to save her and bring her back. Like, all of that stuff.
Matt:It just feels like like one thing after another that's set in motion by coincidence and almost accident. And it's it's really cool to see how it plays out. Also, speaking to that and talking about all this time travel, I really love the special effects for the time travel, like the tunnel that you're in and, like, the waviness. It's just... It's such a cool use of mode seven, and it just looks dope as hell.
Matt:And, like, I always get excited every time I time travel. Like, it's never boring. I'm never tired of seeing it. It's always fun.
Aaron:Yep. And I love the dial thing too where you can pick the different time periods that you wanna travel to and everything. I'm surprised we didn't talk about this, but the the trial with with Chrono after they're like, hey. You kidnapped the princess, and they have all these cool little... Like, the game basically learns from what you did.
Aaron:Like, if you take the guy's sandwich or if you say whatever to this guy or, you know, talk to this dude and pick this option, it's like, wait. He... He's actually guilty of this or something like that. I I love how they played all that into why you even continue the... Because, like without that trial and Chrono being found guilty...
Aaron:Or I mean, I guess you can be found not guilty to... Wait.
Matt:You can be found innocent, but you're still put in jail overnight to think about what you've done, and then the chancellor still changes the thing to put you to death either way. But like, yeah, I I love that you you do the, RPG tropes of taking items that you see, drinking, you know, things that you shouldn't. Right? All the stuff. And, like...
Matt:But on the other hand, there's also the trope, like, you find the cat and then bring it back to the girl. Right? And all of those things play into your trial. I got to watch my friend Eric Van Allen from acts of the blood god podcast stream the trial scene for the first time and, like, see him get hoisted by his own petard doing all of those RPG trope stuff. He was so upset in the best way.
Matt:Like, it was just so fun to, like, see someone still experience joy and surprise from that moment, from this game that's been around for so long.
Aaron:Yeah. Don't know about you, but I can't really remember a whole lot about Isla's story other than, like, she was the chief, and then she was like, nope. I'll give it to my ex boyfriend or whatever, and then I'm gonna go dick around in the, I guess, in time... I almost said the future, but like, gonna dick around with time travel and stuff and help Chrono. I can't remember a whole lot about what her story was.
Aaron:Everybody else, I can, for the most part, remember, but not really hers.
Matt:I mean, is a little more straightforward, but it's basically the the... It's the the age of the dinosaurs coming to the end, and then Azilla and her having a conflict and, like, trying to reassert the dinosaur dominance, but she and the rest of the apes, as they're called, fight back and push back. And, like, and, like, you get to know their tribe better, and, like, you even do the, the soup drinking contest, and you can win if you're a good button masher. But, like, you know... And then, like, her boyfriend gets jealous of you because she thinks that...
Matt:He thinks that you're falling for her, but she calls her a dummy. He's like, no one can replace you. Right? And then, yeah, then gives him the kingdom to go off and gallivant through time. But, like, her storyline, think, a little more straightforward than a lot the other characters, but that's still really cool to see, like, the extinction of the dinosaurs and how it happened.
Matt:Turns out it wasn't a meteor in this world. It was Lavos that killed the dinosaurs, right, and wiped out, you know, the last of the dinosaurs. Like, I think that stuff was also really cool kind of playing on real life, but also in this unique world where the dinosaurs were sentient in a different way.
Aaron:Okay. Yeah. I'm glad that I, for the most part, retained her story, but I guess, yeah, I expected hers to be as not like twisty turny as a lot of the other characters, but like to have a little bit more to it. But I mean, I guess that is that is plenty. That's...
Aaron:Yeah. I mean, she's a cave lady. That's pretty much all they need. I forgot what Marliss was again too. Gosh, dang it.
Matt:You basically find out the history of the pendant, where it came from, that where she descends from, and like the chancellor in the past that kidnapped her... The her great great great great great great great grandmother. Also, there's the chancellor present is the the ancestor of that creature who tries to do the same thing, but like, you know, kill Chrono and take the king away and hide the real the real chancellor away and like all of that. And you find out, like, she learns to like stand up for herself and that she doesn't want to be a ruler not yet, all of that stuff like...
Aaron:That's right.
Matt:Her story is a lot of... Is very much about like self acceptance and, like, self worth and all of that and, like, what it means to be royalty and all of those things.
Aaron:Okay. Okay. Yeah. I'm getting... Yeah.
Aaron:That feels very Garnett from Final Fantasy nine. I'm feeling that one now. Yeah. That is... That's pretty much all I had for the story.
Aaron:It's... Like we've said before, it all flows together so smoothly. It's so easy to follow, so easy to drink up, and I love the little mini arcs. I love all that stuff. That's everything I love about that in the gist.
Aaron:What what about you, Matt?
Matt:Yeah. I mean, I think it's really brilliant storytelling. I love the twists and turns. I love the character reveals. I love the moments of heroics and sadness.
Matt:And like there's this game... Like you were talking about the side quest where you can save Luca's mom from being hurt by the invention that her dress gets stuck in. And like, if you don't save her, it's just as heartbreaking. Right? The scream that's like basically digitized into
Aaron:the game.
Matt:Like there's not a lot of VO in this game, but there's like the the... A scream that's digitized. It's just... And like, imagine having to relive that, having lived it as a kid and not being able to stop it, and then going back as an adult and still not being able to stop it and like reliving it. Like, it's it's just things like that that make the story sing in this game because they take those moments of both deep silliness and deep heart and drama with the same seriousness.
Matt:And I think that balance is what really makes this a very strong and incredible game narratively.
Aaron:Yeah. Okay. That's that's something I wanna end the whole story, but on... Yeah. I like how emotional this game is despite the time that it came out, or I guess not necessarily the time, but, like, the hardware restrictions.
Aaron:Because as good as Final Fantasy six is and many other Super Nintendo JRPGs, I feel like they they don't hit the the high... Like, they don't come... I mean, they they do come close to the highs of Chrono Trigger, but I feel like Chrono Trigger not only takes the time to flesh out every character and make... Makes you come to... Or comes to make you care about them even deeper as the game goes along, and you...
Aaron:You're forming connections not only with them, but I guess their past and everything like that. This game packs an emotional wallop that you just don't see in many other games on the system, And that's that's really, really cool. Like, I think... I I can't think of any other... Like, single other game other than maybe Final Fantasy six, but I don't know if those characters are nearly as fleshed out.
Matt:Yeah. I think Final Fantasy four and six both do a really good job of telling their stories. I think they're just... They're telling different stories. I think there are still emotional arcs and impact.
Matt:And like Final Fantasy four has become one of my favorite Final Fantasies, but I think there's something unique about the diversity of stories that Chrono Trigger is telling and the different arcs like you said that make it more like an anime, make it more like a grand adventure with like different locations and all of that. I think there's just no other game of that era that's telling a story in this way with this much expertise.
Aaron:Yeah. That's it for the show. Huge thanks to to Matt for coming on. You've been excellent as always. I need to get you on for another show at some point.
Aaron:Before we, transitioned to Super Ghost, you were talking about doing something with Chrono Cross. Did you ever beat that game or, like, replay it like you were going to? Or?
Matt:I didn't get around to it yet. I do want to. I did purchase the remaster on the Switch, and so I do intend to play it. That's on my list I think for next year. I think that ship has sailed this year, as we're almost done with the summer and like four of the most anticipated games I've been thinking about for the last five years are just coming out in the next month.
Matt:And so, you know, there's not gonna be a lot of time to play it, but I do intend to replay it so we can chat about it. So maybe we can do a sequel episode where I'm... It'll be my second time playing it, not my first, but my first, like, with objective eyes really playing it because I basically hated it my first time playing it because it didn't live up to Chrono Trigger. And how would it? They're such different games.
Matt:And so I wanna try and be more of... Because it was a sequel to my favorite game of all time. I expected it to be better than my favorite game of all time, and it sorely disappointed. And so I wanna give it a fair shake. I wanna go into it more objectively and just see if it's a good game, if it stands on its own.
Matt:So when I do, we'll reconvene here to talk about it. But, thank you for having me. I appreciate you reaching out. I've built quite a strong brand as the the Chrono Trigger fan, but I'm glad that you loved it. Such a unique perspective to play Chrono Cross first and then go back to it.
Matt:I think that's really awesome. I think it's fun when, you know, like a lot of folks have done this with the yakuza series. Right? Played yakuza like a dragon, the RPG, and then went back and played the old games and saw how the story led up to it. And so, like, I love when folks do that, but it's been an honor to come back.
Matt:I love being on this show, your other shows. It's always fun to chat with you, and it was so much fun to get to talk about one of my favorite games with you.
Aaron:Thank you, Matt. Yeah. It's always great having you on. I really wish I would have jotted down more notes. I would have had just a little little bit more to say, but, yeah, this game was excellent.
Aaron:I... Yeah. We absolutely need to get that Chrono Cross episode in the mix because there's a lot that I could say about that game. But another time mayhaps. Before we go, I wanna give a quick shout out to everyone who supports the show on Patreon like Matt.
Aaron:Start off from the top. They're Brian Wagers, Dean Martin, you're gonna eat that crust. Dave c, Quest 64, well known Nintendo 64 game, Matt at Cave of Stormageddon That's me. Kevin Demo, Jeff from Ursa Miners, Trey, Bar Silence of video game music podcast, and Jared Schrader. If you wanna have your name shouted out right here as well as early episodes, all that good stuff, just like just like Matt here and everybody else I mentioned a second ago, go check out the Patreon or Ko fi, leaving 2 or $4 a month, all that jazz.
Aaron:Again, Matt, thank you for hanging out. We'll have to do something again sometime soon. Everybody, thanks for listening. Check out the website. Stay cool.
Aaron:Bye.
Matt:Bye.
